GC and the extreme right etc etc

[lionheart]

In case you were wondering ...

transsafety.network/posts/gcs-and-the-right/

'In an unfortunate development, in the last few months we have seen a rapid increase in the rate at which practical crossovers are happening between so-called "Gender Critical" feminist groups (which seek to abolish transition healthcare and trans civil rights) and the traditional far right.'

Minor typo, I meant "gender reassignment or sex.

We're back to Hitler v Chairman Mao again, I see.

In the UK trans people are protected by the EA.

So are women- I don't in understand the point that the EA has given trans people access to all female spaces etc. If I have understood the posts correctly, some are very long. There are exceptions which orgs/ facilities etc can use if it's proportionate etc.

The fact that pretty much everything including things like prisons (!) have decided not to do proper impact assessments and in some cases are breaking the law/ their charity charters etc. Does not change the fact that the EA says it is ok to exclude sometimes.

There is a lot mention on this thread about how some women want to repeal the GRA. What about stonewall and others wanting to remove the single sex exceptions and the ability to hire only certain sex people for certain sensitive roles?

Ugh to posting blokes blathering explicit things about women on this board.

You think we don't KNOW how men talk about us? And not just MRAs either.

@Scepticaltank

So why did Caster Semenya feature so heavily in this thread?

Because bigotryisbad called Semenya a “cis woman” and it’s important to not let a blatant lie like that go unchallenged. It’s annoying, and there was no need for Semenya to be brought up in the argument about how people advocating women’s rights are somehow all right wing extremists but once it was brought up, it’s important - for lurkers - that it’s made clear that Semenya is male.

Oh another question to bigotryisbad and JJ

(Hello JJ! How's it going, all good I hope )(not sarcastic in case anyone reads it that way).

What do you want. In terms of the law in England and Wales, social change etc.

What are your top 3 or 5 issues and how would you like them tackled?

@jj1968 Why have you posted that evil disgusting rant?
It adds nothing to the discussion and is offensive beyond belief

@CorvusPurpureus

*In some way it mirrors some of the GC debates

• "it's a bit confusing on paperwork"
• "I don't want to have to learn a new name and title"
• "this (insanely convoluted and difficult process) will be abused"
• "what about titles and insurance"
• "safety (except that had be governed by separate law and it was already protected and working far earlier than this)"*

Well, if you think any of those are GC arguments, then it's unsurprising that you are struggling to effectively engage, Bigot. You might want to read a bit more on this forum, & scold a little less, & then you might bring credible arguments which could be sensibly engaged with.

All these examples but one come from this thread....

That's titles.

jj1968

Do you or do you not think that it's OK for a male to punch a 60 year old woman in the face? Do you think that male should be defended by a 'women's rights' group?

Do you or do you not think its OK to prevent a group of women from meeting up by blocking their access on stairs and intimidating them?

Is it OK for a group of males to let off smoke bombs (or whatever they were) outside a place where a group of women are meeting to discuss their rights? Especially near Grenfell?

Can you name me an incident where GC feminists have used violence or intimidation in this way against trans people? Do you think that women should be allowed to meet to discuss their rights?

@NiceGerbil

That's a huge and very peculiar reaction to my post.

I just don't get what you hope to achieve? It's a genuine question?

Do you hope to change minds?
Is it for the lurkers?

I have absolutely not told you to sod off. And I note your use of the word transpobic.

Given that is how you feel it would be like me joining an incel site or an anti abortion site and trying to argue with them. I wouldn't ever do that for a variety of reasons.

Obviously you are here and you have said repeatedly that this section is transpobic.

I'm more than happy to talk, I enjoy hearing other people's perspectives. I just don't understand what's in it for you.

I've actually answered this before. There are no forums in the UK other than here which are dominated by trans issues. The reason I've posted here is firstly to challenge misinformation, or to provide counter arguments in the hope that those reading will see a more balanced view. This is the largest parenting website in the world, I think it is deeply sad that it is not a place that trans parents and supportive parents of trans kids can safely use for support. Perhaps, if things were a bit more balanced, that might change. And honestly part of me hopes that maybe there is some value in attempting to politely present the other side of the debate, or offer some information on what (my) life is like as a trans person and maybe even amidst it all find occassional moments of common ground or the glimmer of solidarity.

@adviceseekingnamechanger

I've reported several directly personal attacks on me in this thread alone. MNHQ get about two reports per post when it gets really bad on a thread and there are entire threads where the only thing I do is report blatant transphobia and I don't post at all.

It's deleted a reasonable proportion of the time but claiming it doesn't exist at all when the reason for that is the dozen reports I've had to make having gone through it all?

This website is hostile because people keep posing transphobia and personal attacks and arguing that pro trans voices should go elsewhere. That it might not be so obvious because people have taken the time to report it? Still means those people have to look through it.

And by "those people", I mean me.

@NiceGerbil

Ugh to posting blokes blathering explicit things about women on this board.

You think we don't KNOW how men talk about us? And not just MRAs either.

Well its been deleted and possibly rightly so, I wasn't massively comfortable tbh but I think its important people know exactly what we are up against when it comes to these groups. There is no comparison with that shit and trans inclusive feminist groups, they are dangerous, for all women, trans, gender nonconforming or LGBT people and this both sides narrative legitimises them which is exactly what they want.

Just had a quick look.

3 deletions on this thread.

One of JJ's.

Not sure which side of the debate the other 2 are on.

@bigotryisbad well I for one welcome you. I feel like it can be a bit echo chambery here sometimes and as I said upthread, I much prefer when people actually stick around and discuss, rather than just plop in with 'the transphobia around here is disgusting' and then just fuck off!

Nothing you have said has made me think any differently on this issue, but I definitely welcome different views.

@NiceGerbil

Oh another question to bigotryisbad and JJ

(Hello JJ! How's it going, all good I hope )(not sarcastic in case anyone reads it that way).

What do you want. In terms of the law in England and Wales, social change etc.

What are your top 3 or 5 issues and how would you like them tackled?

1. Respect trans people's existing rights and just stop with all the lies. They help no one; they scare some and they lead to hostility and, on occasion outright violence.

1. Bring healthcare into line with internationally accepted standards of care and have it placed into the hands of properly qualified professionals and out of the hands of Tavistock permanently.

JJ's welcome to the other 3/5. I'm sticking with those two for now.

@NiceGerbil

Just had a quick look.

3 deletions on this thread.

One of JJ's.

Not sure which side of the debate the other 2 are on.

Yep. Some of the one's I reported didn't get deleted; two of them, aimed directly at me, did.

I have the emails but I'm not posting them for the (hopefully obvious) reason that I don't think they added anything.

c. The argument for trans rights and the GRA is similar: why should people not be allowed to change their legal gender?

Because they're identifying into another group's protected class.

So not at all similar.

Trans people were also prevented from various other things like being buried as their gender (which seems frankly cruel)

How does this work in practice? What happens if you are 'prevented from being buried as your gender'? Does the vicar misgender you throughout the service? Does your 'deadname' go on your headstone?

Or is it just that a death certificate records your sex in the same way as a birth certificate? There's even less justification for changing death certificates than there is for changing birth certificates because you're no longer even around to get upset.

... legally can't impact on cis people except in a tiny number of circumstances

Prisons is really quite a biggie though isn't it? In the JR against MoJ, female prisoners' articles 3, 8 and 14 rights were discussed.

Also the impossibility of using the occupational exceptions in the EA. Many individuals who need to use this exception are disabled people with daily intimate care needs. This group is not tiny in number.

the right to update records of birth and marriage

Is this a right? What sort of right is this? Do we all have that right?

I'd quite like to change the date of birth on mine because increasingly I identify as ready for the state pension. Maybe I could change the place of birth and gain citizenship of another country. Perhaps I could change the names of the people who are recorded as my mother and father and secure a large inheritance If I identify as next in line for the throne can I put down the queen and prince philip?

Why is the answer to all of these 'no, don't be ridiculous' but when it comes to sex this is somehow completely reasonable and anyone who questions it is a bigot?

All the GC claims seem to be that as some of the presenting discrimination has changed over time, that the fundamental reasoning that the government was breaking human rights law in relation to trans people goes away but that's not how Human Rights Law works; it's a right you can expect of your government and it's the government's job to prevent discrimination against people in minorities because they don't do a lot of good otherwise.

You don't appear to have the first clue about how human rights work.

The GRA in itself is not a human right. It's not a human right to change the details on your birth certificate. The GRA was an extremely fudged solution to legitimate human rights issues identified by ECHR, all of which are now better met by more recent and more coherent legislation.

Does it not tell you something that trans people gained the right to marry someone of the same biological sex in 2004 but everyone else had to wait a further decade?

There is no justification or obligation to keep the GRA in perpetuity just because it was once upon a time a handy workaround for a homophobic government.

So I ask again - what actual rights would be removed from trans people if the GRA was repealed?

Let's try them one by one then, Bigotry.

'It's a bit confusing on paperwork'

I don't think any GC poster has said this. It's your paraphrase, I think.

In what circumstances might confusion over paperwork arise? Is such confused paperwork something that might have an impact on people's lives, or is that a very silly concern?

Your tone seems to imply that fretting over paperwork is a bit daft. Is that how you see it?

Well its been deleted and possibly rightly so, I wasn't massively comfortable tbh but I think its important people know exactly what we are up against when it comes to these groups. There is no comparison with that shit and trans inclusive feminist groups, they are dangerous, for all women, trans, gender nonconforming or LGBT people and this both sides narrative legitimises them which is exactly what they want.

There was a thread on here recently about a 'left wing' youtube commenter (his name totally escapes me now, but someone else might remember it?) who did a video about girls speaking out about males in women's sports. I shan't repeat here but the language he was using here about that young woman, but it was absolutely disgusting.

And then there is of course this gem:

But yes, misogyny only comes from 'the far right'

I must admit I couldn't be arsed to read it but got the beginning.

If it's from an MRA site, and from what I saw was about women. Then it's misogyny that you showed.

I'm sure there are plenty of sites that post shit about all sorts of people.

But that one was about hating women.

And women aren't shocked or surprised because we know only too well what men can be like. We've heard all sorts of shit in real life as well, lots of us.

And of course IF self ID is a thing then men like that can (and will) use it to upset women, invade their spaces, and etc etc.

I know this because I know that loads of men take great pleasure in intimidating women and girls, upsetting them etc. Before you even get onto the worse stuff.

I'm sure that trans people, or the ones who change their appearance anyway, get shit, with the most danger from men. As do lots of other groups of people.

I don't understand the magic by which when males declare they are trans they become definitely aok?

And the argument that men are going to rape women anyway so what's the problem is, well it's just really tone deaf.

The lengths so many women and girls go to, to follow all sorts of rules, restrict their lives, to avoid sex crimes. To be told well you're going to get raped anyway is really awful.

I don't know whether anyone on this thread has ever used that argument, I have seen it a lot though so thought I'd pre-empt it just in case.

1. Respect trans people's existing rights and just stop with all the lies. They help no one; they scare some and they lead to hostility and, on occasion outright violence.

Which lies, and what violence?

2. Bring healthcare into line with internationally accepted standards of care and have it placed into the hands of properly qualified professionals and out of the hands of Tavistock permanently.

So you think that pubescent children should be put onto unlicensed drugs to halt their normally developing puberty, stunting their brain development possibly permanently and other physical development? Why?!

One of the gentlemen in that tuneful video about kerb stomping TERFs, turned out to take his ideas about assaulting women from the realms of musical genius into well, attacking women.

This was obviously very surprising to many women who had watched the video. Not.

On 1, do mean keeping the GRA and the EA as they are?
You're happy with the single sex exceptions in the EA?
Then there's the protected characteristics and hate crime laws which also protect trans people.

If orgs started applying the law, exercising the exceptions when it was proportionate, doing proper equality and assessments etc would that be ok by you?

Do you have a link as to what the internationally accepted standards of care are?