I'm tired of it already!

[Jiggy16]

Hi guys,

So prob my 1st post in this section tho I'm a regular lurker, this place has really helped me see the light! Anyway, was stupidly wasting time on fb earlier and came across a post on some feminist page, and flip me the amount of abuse women were getting was crazy. It was originally to do with jk Rowling but had moved onto just slagging women so for the first time I responded to a few comments. I've never done this before as I tend to go blank in the mind during heated debates but I just can't get over the venom. I was respectful and asked a few questions, put my own opinion out there (how very dare I) and basically got the literal violence replies. How do you guys cope? After a few exchanges I just couldn't be bothered with it, there was no point as no matter what I said it was just ignored. I'll post a few photos up. But I can't believe how many people seem to hate women. And I don't understand if transwomen want to be women, why do they hate us so much?! I'm not intelligent for these conversations. I'm still angry but I know I have to come away from it otherwise I'll be so wound up. Anyway. Just wanted to vent to people that might understand!

Some more.

I'm sorry you had to be on the receiving end of such rudeness (I'm being polite there!).

Good on you for trying to engage in grown up discussion. Utterly reasonable points and questions.

It's definitely the key here - maintain out dignity and maturity. It completely shows up some of the toddler behaviour coming from the TRA community.

Not everyone on the internet is quite right in the head. That's the short answer.

(Obviously it's true in life as well, but we would generally ignore and cross the street.)

@bourbonne

Not everyone on the internet is quite right in the head. That's the short answer.

(Obviously it's true in life as well, but we would generally ignore and cross the street.)

Yep, that too. I think it was on here that I read the obvious fact that by definition, half the population are of less than average intelligence!

Ugh, "just a friendly reminder that MINDLESS SLOGAN" posts. The introductory notes of propaganda and overt peer pressure. Who talks to people like that? At least it wasn't punctuated with clapping emojis.

I think you're plenty intelligent- I understand exactly what you are arguing and you made your case quite clearly.

The myth the TRAs operate under is pretending their arguments are intelligent-if you can't understand their reasoning, it's not because you aren't smart enough, it's because their arguments don't make sense.

Thanks guys, I just blocked the main person as I couldn't stop myself looking to see if they'd replied. I'm quite annoyed and alarmed by the 'segregation' comment, its like their trying to compare women wanting to have safe spaces to racism. And the the thing about suicide prevention - why is our mental health not prioritised for all the crap we've been put through since birth, just for being female. I can't get over the hatred and absolute shutting down of discussions. I almost feel like I've done something wrong, tho I know my views are valid.

You make a perfectly intelligent argument.

It is the multiple layers of obfuscation, logical fallacy and abuse you get in return that are so wearing.

I'm quite annoyed and alarmed by the .......comment

They stop shocking you after a while.

There are ways of categorising these - it is a bit like chess with pre-rehearsed openings, and gambits etc.

'Motte and bailey' is a popular 'move'.

It's nothing but emotional blackmail.

Not going along with their belief for their 'survival' ffs.

Not our job to be responsible for another adult's poor mental health or be forced to provide constant validation of anyone's identity.

I haven't heard of that. When I read threads on here, u all put it together so eloquently that I just get it straight away yet when it comes time to speak up it all disappears out of my head. I really am getting worried about the future. Whst is it about being female that they hate so much!? There was more but I must have not got them all, where that person was talking about I don't understand their 'lived experiences' - surely that's showing that there is a difference between us (regardless of all the biology, which is now not allowed to count) we grow up very different, I can't understand what they've gone through, and they can't understand what females have gone through, so we are separate groups?!

Thanks all for the support. I know its nothing compared to the abuse lots of women get, its just really got to me. I'm so sick of not being counted and expected to bow down to male beliefs/wishes etc.

Apologies for typos, my texting abilities are bad at the best of times, frustration doesn't seem to help!

OP. Well done for standing up to the nonsense!

Jiggy please, please please don't put yourself down like that.

Trying to argue for your own human rights, while facing an onslaught of venom, is a huge thing to have to do.

You were trying to have a discussion with someone who was pulling all the tricks they had within FB guidelines to intimidate you into shutting up, and that is incredibly emotionally gruelling.

Thank you. Its the hypocrisy thats infuriating me, the talk of violence and attacking their identity ans being - yea we get that!! They're doing it to us! Plus I have no problem with people being trans, but I do object to women being eliminated in the process. I don't understand all these labels and all, why can we not just be male or female and then present/dress/be whoever u want within that?
I stupidly went back last night, eugh

Jiggy, I am so sorry you felt annoyed and alarmed by this. It must be exhausting when you are new to it.

I recommend reading up on the issue and argumentation. Then, when you discuss, ask simple, sometimes slightly stupid questions that you already know the answer to (the ones which they cannot justify), keep coming back to those.

Sooner or later they will tie themselves into quite satisfactory verbal knots and look idiotic - for everyone to see.

You will never convince them anyway, I think they have to believe this or feel that their world is collapsing. We had one poster here yesterday who (if I read it correctly) stated that a clitoris and a penis was basically the same and not to different in size. This is what you are arguing with.

Around the time of the JKR thing, I asked if a good friend had read it, and said 'it didn't seem transphobic to me'. Cue a 50 minute tirade that I wasn't intellectually prepared to defend. I am not transphobic and I knew to the fucking core of my bones, that something odd was going on and so didn't back down. That friendship is probably lost, but if a similar conversation crops up irl now, I have the facts at my fingertips and will not be on the back foot. I have spent weeks wrangling with TRAs on twitter, partly for practice partly to test my beliefs. They've got nothing. Religious zealots.TWAW, TWAW repeat. Welcome to the resistance OP.

Thanks for this. I read lots of the threads here and other people explain it so perfectly, yet when I'm under pressure my mind just goes blank. Unfortunately a characteristic I have regardless of the topic being discussed. You're right, we can't change there minds when they're that far gone but I just can't get over how backwards we are going, and I'm scared for the message my small children will be exposed to growing up. And to try and protect them we're called all sorts of names. Like I said in sorry, this is trivial compared to the abuse so many of u have faced and so many women out there have had, I've read so much and been horrified but I guess getting a taste first hand really hits it home. I will keep reading and attempting to put womens voices out there, just how effective ill be is the question!

Big thank you to u all for the support and education!

Membership card? You get a membership card now?!😮

Brings to mind a current thread on here about making feminism more inclusive, the general consensus is that feminism isn't a club you join to make you feel better about yourself but something that you do to support the women around you and further afield.

Sorry you're getting a hard time tbh if anything it reminds me of trying to negotiate with a particularly highly strung 14yo (from my experience at least)

Hang in there and good on you for speaking up! I remember feeling shocked by some responses when I started to do so. Just remember, there will be many people silently lurking in those conversations so just stay calm, stay rational and let the insanity speak for itself.

Just remember, simple questions can be very effective.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNgROsuliCc

This is a clip where a US Senator is asking a witness how many sexes there are (really funny).

I am just gutted that he didn’t follow up with the question “how many of these sexes are involved in conceiving a child?”

• Note: I am not American and have no idea of what other policies this senator supports.

These people are literally insane. One of the things they like to pretend is that their view is much more sophisticated than ours - that they know that science now understands that the idea of two biological sexes is laughably simplistic. It's very much like the people who know that the Americans never sent people to the moon, or that the Israelis were responsible for 9/11. They often have quite elaborate arguments to prove their point.

I agree that asking questions is a good approach. I love "How many sexes do you need to make a baby?" There is a brilliant essay on Medium which I can't find at the moment called something like "To the man on Twitter who says there's no such thing as biological sex". It's an absolutely brilliant takedown of the arguments. You'll never convince them, though - as I said, they are completely nuts, and immune to rational persuasion.

I like "Where do babies come from?"...

There is a brilliant essay on Medium

There was a brilliant essay on Medium. Account suspended, obviously.

Here's an archive - not sure if it's been rehosted anywhere:

An Open Letter to the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Oh, I can't believe that that person's account has been suspended. Well, OK, I can believe it, but what a farce. Let's not publish people who speak calm, rational, good sense, because who knows, someone might be persuaded by it.

Glad that someone has archived it. It's one of the best pieces I've read on this whole sorry business.