HoL debate on amendment 87B starting

[OvaHere]

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/4ab0ed94-985c-4919-97b8-4d2f5ab429af?in=16:28:22

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1372223944758026246

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
14m
Baroness Alica Kennedy - this bill is about gathering evidence about abuse against women and girls

Sexual harassment in public spaces - it is mainly not reported.

Rape charges are falling

Crimes disproportionately effecting women and carried out by men

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
12m
"Gender" perceived to be the motivation for high percentage of hate crime

or does she mean sex?

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
11m
Some say wait for the law commission.

We don't have to wait for this reviews - we can measure where crime is targeted at women. We can do it now.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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11m
Is it a crime?
Yes - sexual assault, abuse and violence.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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9m
The issue is not whether someone was born a woman or "becomes one"

This is the language used by the law commission ....

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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8m
If we are not recording crime targeted at women how can we tackle violence against women and girls?

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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4m
Lord Young - quoting Lord Russell in committee "given the range and depth of work undertaken by the Law Commission" we should wait. Domestic Abuse Commissioner supports this Bill.

Suggests sending messages to police force's to trial this

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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4m
Ideological misogyny - hate motivated by "gender" is in a 1/3rd of all hate crimes

(or is it sex!)

@MForstater
Lord Russell - one week is a long time in politics. 30 women killed by men in the past 10 weeks.

Paying tribute to police forces recording incidents of misogyny as perceived by women.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

Lord Russell talking about women reporting being the victim of sexual assault:

Women worrying whether they will be believed.
Putting themselves through that over and over.
Toxic culture of misogyny and objectifying women in some parts of the police

Thanks for posting

@MForstater
Misogyny is too simple. Opinions are not enough. Collecting data is important - but if you want accurate data "hate" is impossible to define. What the victim perceives. Not a reliable way to collect accurate data. Subjective.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

Encourage individuals to attribute motives to others. Leads to "thought crime" and labelling of speech as prejudice. Chilling free speech.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

This bill is a deception. It does not mention "women" - the language used is very purposeful. Promoted as being about women, but in practice talks about "a particular sex or gender".

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

Gender is not defined in UK law. Subjective and malleable.
Sex is defined in law

ORS said sex and gender should not be conflated.
Quoting from
@sexmattersorg

• undermines accurate information being accrued

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

Police need a clear data field for the sex of victims and perpetrators.

This is misogyny in plain sight. Not naming women in this Bill.

Women could be named as violent hate criminal if they misgender?

Maya Forstater
@MForstater

We must not be pressurised to criminalise women with gender critical views.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
1m
Replying to
@MForstater
Now Paddick. Baroness Fox questioned whether trivial offences will be kidnapped and the development of 'thought police'.

Crimes should be recorded as misogynistic if the motivation is sex and gender

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
31s
Replying to
@MForstater
I want misogyny to be treated as a hate crime coherently - with support and as an aggravating factor. The law commission is looking at that. The last thing i want is for the govt to say to them 'relax' we did that in the DA bill

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
27s
Hate crimes target a vulnerable group. Women are not a minority. But they are targeted because they are vulnerable. Women are physically vulnerable to male violence. Men abuse women because they can. That makes women vulnerable to abuse because they are women.

@MForstater
I am concerned about violence towards women and girls on the streets.

But this bill is about domestic abuse. Males underreport domestic abuse.

Associating DA with misogyny could make that worse.

Well done Claire Fox! Very clear

@MForstater
In DA it is difficult to differentiate misogyny from the power in a relationship - cooercive control.

DA is serious enough on its own.

I am not yet convinced that the downsides of this amendment have been adequately addressed - could not vote for this amendment

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
28s
If an offender believes the victim was a woman, then it should be recorded as an attack on a woman.

The use of the term sex on its own may exclude some offences.

Any attacker motivated by hatred of women. If that is what they thought then it should be recorded as misogyny

Thanks for the posts! 😘

Probably should have added this to the OP. Background on why this debate is happening and the potential consequences in the detail.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/stonewalling-the-domestic-violence-bill-why-make-misogyny-gender-neutral/

Replying to
@MForstater
Now Baroness Bennett (Green Party Natalie Bennett) Citizens UK role - hate crimes survey linked to gender

(what is gender??) .... they mean sex.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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5m
Replying to
@MForstater
In response to Lady Fox - real world experience does not suggest difficulties.

We have and endemic disease of misogyny. Thats the only way women and girls can be safe

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
5m
Next: Tanni Grey Thompson. Tired and appalled by how women are treated in society.

But this bill is complex.

Lady Fox has given me much to think about

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
5m
Both men and women are affected by domestic violence
There is only one place in the bill where "female" is mentioned. We should take care with it.
I was told disability was too complex to be here.
This bill is not the place to deal with hate crimes

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
5m
This is about counting.

In this amendment "gender" has been added. It is not defined in law
It takes away from the clarity of clause 73
It could undermine the single use of the word female in the bill
Sex is adequate and defined in law

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
5m
Law commission draws on ONS in setting out what is meant by sex and gender -

Pannick says it is unwise to legislation
In Scotland they removed gender from forensic medicine to allow women to be examined by a female doctor

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
5m
I would be interested in the DA Commissioner thinks
Concern about "gender" here - t will prevent clarity about sex in female only services
We must take misogyny and violence seriously. It is every single day.
Address it in VAWG strategy not this last minute amendment

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
1m
Lord Kennedy - I think this bill is a step forward. Women are more likely to experience severe abuse

This amendment will help the Law Commission's review - will give it data

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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1m
I concur with comments of Lord Young of Cookham on sex and gender.
Dont agree with Claire Fox. Not an issue of free speech.
Labour benches will support this bill. hoping Baroness Williams will support

Replying to
@MForstater
Baroness Williams - a thoughtful debate. The collection of data could add to our understanding of hate crime against women. We are more than willing to engage on data collection. Enables us to find solutions.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
Agree that we shouldn't react in a kneejerk way, but i have given this issue - we need to do more to keep women safe from harassment, abuse and violence.

Will publish new VAWG strategy by the summer (please contribute to the consultation).

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
We are updating Hate Crime action plan - via the law Commission - mentions "sex" , "gender" and "age" as protected characteristics.

The review identified potential gaps to support a consistent approach. They considered the question of "sex" or "gender" or "misogyny. Its complex

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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4m
It mustn't create a hierarchy of harm in domestic violence.
The law itself must be coherent. There may need to be carve outs. The Law Commission are still working through it. Before we make long term decisions we should wait for the outcome of the Law Commission's review.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
Section 44 already allows the Home Secretary to require police to provide statistics.

The amendment isn't needed. We do agree that data can be helpful. Some police forces already collecting it.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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4m
We will ask police forces to record crimes of violence where v perceives it as motivated by hostility based on their sex

We will start experimental collection of data this autumn.
The details still to be worked thru. Not exclude gender, but the details still being worked thru

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
Lord Phil asks a question - will this follow the Nottingham approach - which focused on women?

Not introduce "gender"

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
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4m
Baroness Williams - i cant confirm what will be there in conclusion , but i will consult.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
Lord Russell of Liverpool - the ways in which the different police forces are recording "misogyny" are all slightly different - your department will look at how police forces are collecting this.

And work with the Law Commission - and come out with a clarification to police

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
Baroness Williams - i confirm that. Consistency is what we need.

Baroness Kennedy thanks Lords and Stella Creasy and Jess Phillips.

This data will add to the Law Commission's review

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
·
4m
This is a first step to record data. Data shines a light on an issue and allows it to be assessed.

Agree with Tanni- women are tired.

Thanks Baroness Williams for move for police to record hostility based on sex (...and gender) as Lord Russell confirmed (?) Withdrawn amendment

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg
Amendment 87B withdrawn after thoughtful debate in HoL.

The definition, data consistency & wider impacts of introducing "gender" to this law were raised

Sex Matters also had first mention in the House

Thanks to
@Fox_Claire

@Tanni_GT

@LordPhilofBrum
for raising the issues

thanks for re- posting Ova

Thanks OvaHere so how is data to be recorded now.? Sorry can’t really get what the result is!

Me neither . I was coming to ask for the Ladybird version...

HoL for Dummies needed here too

😡 or 😁?

@Thecatonthemat

Thanks OvaHere so how is data to be recorded now.? Sorry can’t really get what the result is!

Not entirely sure. I think it's being thrown back to the Law Commission review?

One issue raised was inconsistency of data recording between forces. That needs to be ironed out?

The overall result is that 87b - the addition of misogyny as a hate crime to the Domestic Abuse bill was rejected. The reasons for rejecting the amendment are varied but the concern from Sex Matters was that it was being used to insert gender into an amendment that should be about sex. Had it passed then in theory various types of male people would be recorded as suffering misogyny as a hate crime.

I think I'm right in the above interpretation. Happy to be corrected on the details.

Thanks for posting. This is a win, isn't it? Based on the Sex Matters link above.

It sounds like it could have been really serious actually. Women charged with hate crimes for talking about male violence? Or would it only have been some males included under hate crimes? In which case everyone posting on the Trans widows thread would still have been at risk. I get the strong impression women would have been utterly fucked by this. And everyone's so exhausted from the relentless assault on our rights that even this forum hasn't really been on top of it.

Thank you to Sex Matters and the wonderful people in the Lords for continuing to win at this exhausting, expensive game of whack-a-mole.

I do think misogyny needs to be a hate crime but the current hate crime framework isn't up to the job. Track men who assault women. Track flashers, track voyeurs, track the stalkers, track the domestic abusers and the rapists. Don't let them off the hook because they have sob stories about supporting their family or their gender feelings. Fucking write their names down and don't let them change those names and catch them before they escalate. Unlike other hate crime categories (?), hate crimes directed at women have predictable patterns of escalation and the concept that recording misogynistic hate crimes could help prevent escalations has data to back it up.

It sounds like it could have been really serious actually. Women charged with hate crimes for talking about male violence? Or would it only have been some males included under hate crimes? In which case everyone posting on the Trans widows thread would still have been at risk. I get the strong impression women would have been utterly fucked by this. And everyone's so exhausted from the relentless assault on our rights that even this forum hasn't really been on top of it.

Yes that was the concern. Sex Matters did a great job highlighting the potential problems with it.

I do think misogyny needs to be a hate crime but the current hate crime framework isn't up to the job. Track men who assault women. Track flashers, track voyeurs, track the stalkers, track the domestic abusers and the rapists. Don't let them off the hook because they have sob stories about supporting their family or their gender feelings. Fucking write their names down and don't let them change those names and catch them before they escalate. Unlike other hate crime categories (?), hate crimes directed at women have predictable patterns of escalation and the concept that recording misogynistic hate crimes could help prevent escalations has data to back it up.

Thinking about this some more, imagine how difficult it would be to spot these crucial lifesaving patterns in the data if the data got all mixed up and confused by the inclusion of males. It would completely fuck up any realistic, data-driven attempt to tackle VAWG and actually save women's lives. Thank goodness this was defeated.

Yes!
This is what @SusanBaroness announced "On an experimental basis we will ask police forces to record any crimes of violence against a person including stalking, harassment and sexual offences where the victim perceives it to be motivated by a hostility based on their sex "

twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1372267788279119873?s=19

Hmm...it's all getting a bit confusing now. Stella Creasy and others claiming it as a victory despite the amendment being withdrawn. A bit of spin going on?

twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/1372243410346766338

Amazing! Government agrees to ask all police forces to record data on crimes motivated by sex or gender to help inform tackling violence against women from this autumn - they have accepted our argument to treat #MisogynyAsHateCrime! Now for amending the sentencing bill ...

This is Maya and Sex Matters response.

No the government will commence data collection on an experimental basis and wait for the Law Commission's review.

The details and definitions are still to be worked out.

This is what @susanbaroness announced "On an experimental basis we will ask police forces to record any crimes of violence against a person including stalking, harassment and sexual offences where the victim perceives it to be motivated by a hostility based on their sex "

"which can then inform longer term decisions once we have considered the Law Commission recommendations. We will shortly begin consultation w the National Police Chiefs council and police forces on this w a view to commencing the experimental collection of data from this autumn"