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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

CCTV and lighting, the government response.

35 replies

MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 10:35

More street lighting and CCTV, is that what we want?

More light pollution, and more surveillance. We are already the most watched nation, and already suffering the effects of light pollution. My thinking is this, that no amount of surveillance, or light, or punishment for crimes committed is going to address the causes of male violence. It seems to me that the government believes that leaving aside the structural and cultural roots of male violence is ok, they are want to play about looking serious in protecting women.

Am I wrong, is greater surveillance and lighting going to make us safe? does the end justify the means? even if the end result is a small reduction in risk?

OP posts:
Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 10:38

It’s not the be all and end all as a solution but it’s a relatively quick and inexpensive stop gap towards solving a bigger problem. I’d take it over nothing and keep pushing for more.

LizzieSiddal · 16/03/2021 10:39

It seems to me that the government believes that leaving aside the structural and cultural roots of male violence is ok, they are want to play about looking serious in protecting women.

Exactly. It's a pathetic response, are need to come up with ways to stop male violence.

NiceGerbil · 16/03/2021 10:42

Is the lighting thing that they switch back on the lights they switched off to save money?!

2Rebecca · 16/03/2021 10:43

I'm about to complain about a new tall streetlight spreading light in the the bedroom windows as not shielded so the light goes everywhere not down at the road and pavements. More bright lighting isn't the solution

Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 10:43

@NiceGerbil

Is the lighting thing that they switch back on the lights they switched off to save money?!
I believe so!
Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 10:44

And of course all the spare bulbs from the Downing Street refurb!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/03/2021 10:46

Surely surveillance (if not street lighting) has increased massively over the past ten years or so? Pretty sure VAWG hasn't reduced.

This is effectively the same as saying that women shouldn't walk in unlit areas or areas without CCTV. This isn't a problem caused by women, it's a problem caused men and lighting / CCTV won't help with that.

SquirmOfEels · 16/03/2021 10:47

Since Friday, they have put solar powered (hired) lights on many of the paths on Clapham Common

Something that has been called for on and off for years. I'd bet good money that there are many other places where locals are calling for similar street improvements.

Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 10:50

I totally agree @ItsAllGoingToBeFine this problem will not be solved with lighting and cctv alone. However other solutions will take longer than switching on the lights that are already there.

There needs to be a multi pronged approach to solving this, lighting and cctv is just one of the physical things that can be used alongside other methods.

Sadly educating, informing and changing the social and economic standing of women, reforming the criminal justice system and a whole host of other issues take time. I’ll take the lightbulbs and the cameras in the mean time.

YourWurstNightmare · 16/03/2021 10:50

From news reports, Sarah was captured on at least 4 different cameras in the ten minutes leading up to her abduction so I don't see how more CCTV will help.

Tanith · 16/03/2021 11:00

Julie Bindel has tweeted:

"Women aren't raped by bad street lighting"

HollywoodTease · 16/03/2021 11:03

The problem with CCTV and lighting is that they help to identify and catch the perpetrators but they don't actually prevent the crime Sad

MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 11:31

Has Bojo et al consulted with any women's groups? doubt it.

Its a sop. It seems to be about the government feeling the need to do something, rather than be seen to do nothing. Its about them washing their hands.

The other thing that makes me a bit sick is the discourse around women's responsibility in raising boys. I have two. And one very striking thing to me is the difference between them. The eldest is asexual with no sexual interest in women. He loudly defends women's rights amongst his friends. The other has a girlfriend and is fast becoming a testosterone saturated arrogant teenager sauntering about with a weird swagger. Both raised the same. The only difference is the younger has been influenced by his discovery of pornography and his friendship group seems to endorse this. This takes me back to the roots of violence being beyond tinkering with street lights. Male attitude seems to change in relation to how they view women as simply sexual objects, irrespective of how equal we are in other spheres, or how the law seeks to tackle male violence and male privilege. No amount of street lights shines a light on the cause of male violence.

So what is needed? what could be done? has the government reached its limits of what it could achieve? I believe so, because it will always fall short of achieving its stated aims because its scope is limited by its own existence. The state itself is inherently violent, and surveillance is another act which seeks control. Why do we need control and further threats of violence (state violence) in order to solve a problem of its own making. What is needed is for men to change their attitude and behaviour, and not because they are threatened with reprisal or further state violence.

We've seen this state violence in action this week directed by the police at women. Violence that Priti Patel is responsible for. Sad that its a woman now blaming another woman (Cresida Dick) for the actions of this state sponsored violence. So, it seems their solution is to ally that guilt. A sop.

If the state is to use any means of control at its disposal it could do something with far wider benefit such as looking at stopping porn, outlawing lap dancing clubs, education in schools, all adults in any position of authority taking every opportunity to educate boys, and at the very least more female representation in politics.

The state itself is a misogynist violent institution born with its roots in the violent exploitation and control of people to its own ends, not too dissimilar to the roots of male violence to women. All about unequal distribution of power backed up with powerful ideological and socially mediated reasons for its own existence. Men seek power over both production and reproduction. I'd much rather Pritti turned her attention to how we can 'police' violent online pornography. But I guess that 'free speech' is somehow only an argument when its not about the right to protest.

I'm so totally disappointed and underwhelmed by this response and wonder how arresting and imprisoning however many men can ever redress the lives lost. And hopping mad that the women at Clapham were subject to more state sponsored male violence simply for having the audacity to have a voice. I suspect Bojo thinks street lights will get us all to just STFU.

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 11:32

precisely

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 11:33

@Tanith

Julie Bindel has tweeted:

"Women aren't raped by bad street lighting"

Sorry, was trying to quote Tanith
OP posts:
Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 11:45

@MiniTheMinx

Has Bojo et al consulted with any women's groups? doubt it.

Its a sop. It seems to be about the government feeling the need to do something, rather than be seen to do nothing. Its about them washing their hands.

The other thing that makes me a bit sick is the discourse around women's responsibility in raising boys. I have two. And one very striking thing to me is the difference between them. The eldest is asexual with no sexual interest in women. He loudly defends women's rights amongst his friends. The other has a girlfriend and is fast becoming a testosterone saturated arrogant teenager sauntering about with a weird swagger. Both raised the same. The only difference is the younger has been influenced by his discovery of pornography and his friendship group seems to endorse this. This takes me back to the roots of violence being beyond tinkering with street lights. Male attitude seems to change in relation to how they view women as simply sexual objects, irrespective of how equal we are in other spheres, or how the law seeks to tackle male violence and male privilege. No amount of street lights shines a light on the cause of male violence.

So what is needed? what could be done? has the government reached its limits of what it could achieve? I believe so, because it will always fall short of achieving its stated aims because its scope is limited by its own existence. The state itself is inherently violent, and surveillance is another act which seeks control. Why do we need control and further threats of violence (state violence) in order to solve a problem of its own making. What is needed is for men to change their attitude and behaviour, and not because they are threatened with reprisal or further state violence.

We've seen this state violence in action this week directed by the police at women. Violence that Priti Patel is responsible for. Sad that its a woman now blaming another woman (Cresida Dick) for the actions of this state sponsored violence. So, it seems their solution is to ally that guilt. A sop.

If the state is to use any means of control at its disposal it could do something with far wider benefit such as looking at stopping porn, outlawing lap dancing clubs, education in schools, all adults in any position of authority taking every opportunity to educate boys, and at the very least more female representation in politics.

The state itself is a misogynist violent institution born with its roots in the violent exploitation and control of people to its own ends, not too dissimilar to the roots of male violence to women. All about unequal distribution of power backed up with powerful ideological and socially mediated reasons for its own existence. Men seek power over both production and reproduction. I'd much rather Pritti turned her attention to how we can 'police' violent online pornography. But I guess that 'free speech' is somehow only an argument when its not about the right to protest.

I'm so totally disappointed and underwhelmed by this response and wonder how arresting and imprisoning however many men can ever redress the lives lost. And hopping mad that the women at Clapham were subject to more state sponsored male violence simply for having the audacity to have a voice. I suspect Bojo thinks street lights will get us all to just STFU.

Totally agree. He things will be enough- they’re not they are merely the beginning.
Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 11:46

Argh - he thinks lights will be enough!

newrubylane · 16/03/2021 16:41

I've been trying to read around this. There's loads of stuff out there about city planners incorporating CCTV and street lighting into designs for women's safety and security he implication that they make a difference. However, I haven't seen any evidence yet that they actually do make women safer, only that they make women feel safer. There is possibly a knock-on effect that if more women feel safe at night more of them may be out on the streets, and busier streets = safer streets. I am sceptical that it's a solution in itself. It may help in places. But I don't think there is a quick fix for this problem. Indeed, I'm not sure it can be fixed at all.

BarefootByMoonlight · 16/03/2021 17:06

I had counselling session today and despite having made a lot of progress I was so upset the counsellor remarked on how different I was compared to my previous session.

We’d been working on me getting out of the house and starting to feel more in control and safer.

And nearly everything mentioned on this thread so far came up. I can practice breathing, take self defence, carry an alarm, try and look more confident - but the fact remains that as a woman I am not safe because as a woman I am not valued by society but the men who raped me are.

Julie Bindel is correct, a switched off light didn’t rape me, lack of an alarm didn’t rape me, men raped me. And far from cameras stopping them raping me, they used cameras to record the rape and share that with other men.

Men rape with the arrogant confidence that they will get away with it.

And until men start being sanctioned for their abhorrent treatment of women, they will continue to rape.

A fucking streetlight isn’t going to fix that.

And Jeremy Vine - laughing! - during a discussion about the rape and sexual assault of women damn near floored me.

peak2021 · 16/03/2021 17:11

@MiniTheMinx well put. The best thing Boris Johnson as an individual could do to help women would be to resign. His own private life demonstrates his misogyny and almost the probable Tory replacements whilst far from perfect would not be as bad.

AbsintheFriends · 16/03/2021 17:44

It's like hoping to cure the plague by putting a frog down your trousers or something.

There's only so much you can achieve to keep women safe on the streets with better lighting and CCTV when the internet is one vast ocean of freely accessible porn. It's my guess that most youngish men these days have seen women being raped and violently overpowered so often on their phone and computer screens that it seems completely commonplace.

Imnobody4 · 16/03/2021 20:10

Thread from Nimko Ali

twitter.com/NimkoAli/status/1371913605071912963?s=19
I can hear her frustation.

TheBuffster · 16/03/2021 20:27

I was quite cross today to hear a woman on radio 2 saying it needs to come down to education. The earlier the better.
It's laying it at the parents and teachers' doors again. Schools can do as many lovely respect pshe lessons as they like but if things like killing women in video games, extreme porn, page 3, visible death threats for famous authors etc. are prevalent, allowed and encouraged by society that's the message boys and men receive.

A good start would be to get the house of commons half filled with women and start making laws and changes to how minor sex crimes and misogyny are tackled.

But with a massive misogynist in no 10 I don't think that will happen.

CongealedCrags · 16/03/2021 20:33

I'd rather they spent the money prosecuting rapists. And jailing murderers. And educating magistrates.

TheABC · 16/03/2021 20:36

We need to overhaul the justice system. Rape prosecution and sentencing is a joke - I read about a convicted rapist getting off scot-free yesterday because "he was at risk of losing his job!". Judges simply don't take rape seriously.