Suzanne Moore on male violence

[CaveMum]

Nail. On. Head.

“I am meant to be writing a light- hearted travel piece at the moment but my heart is heavy.

I can’t look at the news . I can’t not look at the news. A lovely young woman’s face is there. She is missing and well.. I do not know what happened. None of do yet. But we fear, my god we feel the fear.

Women are murdered day in and day out by men. This is how we live. I am here by the skin of my teeth and I have three daughters who walk around at night because you know we are all so free and modern.

They passed to me a list of the things that rapists look out for. Pony- tails are easy to grab. That one stuck in my head. I wear my bag tight across my chest, I have keys in my hand. I take taxis a lot more . I cross over the road. I never walk with headphones in. I tell my youngest to do the same but I know she ignores my advice.

I have been raped. It was probably my own fault and it happened at a time and in a place where if they proposed marriage after , it wasn’t even a crime. I have put myself in many dangerous situations. I have been attacked in the street and gotten away.

Is walking home at nine at night dangerous? Do women say to each other let me know when you are home safe for no reason? No we have every reason. We are not safe on the streets and too many of us are not safe at home.

Male violence is what we live with. We are trapped by it. Whoever we are .Wherever we go.

I don’t want to know any more about Sarah but I imagine I will read everything. Self-defence remember that? Sure it’s a good idea to know some but that does not save us.

Today my defences are so low. Many women’s are. Tomorrow I will gather myself up and be angry that this is the way we have to live. I cannot accept it, I never will. I cannot imagine the pain for Sarah’s loved ones. I swear to god I will do everything I can to make women feel safer

….but its not up to me is it?

The people who can make women safe are not other women.

It is up to men to do that. Is that too much to ask? Is it really?”

Honestly I also feel sad and angry. Why do we have to see some person (well a man) kill someone for power, control and delusion. Let’s face it we do not see women grabbing men and taking them down somewhere hidden and attack them, kill and bury them or whatever they choose to do to hide their evidence. That really angers me. No not every man does this but let’s face it men do this and women don’t. It makes me think I sound like a feminist but I’m not, I’m just fed up that this is our norm, to hear in the papers of men killing random women like this.
It’s somebody who had a future.
People who loved them. I wish these men would stop and just kill themselves instead.
Why the heck do they have to steal from someone else? And yes we women grow up being groped and ogled and attacked. It angers me that we all experience this. I’m also starting to wonder why more men don’t start a campaign against those other shitty men who can’t control themselves. Sorry I’m so angered by this too.

@NiceGerbil

The other thing is that the men who do the extreme things have usually worked their way up to it.

If society and the authorities took VAWG seriously then some of these men would be off the streets before they committed more serious crimes.

Yes to this. I was not shocked to learn that the murderer of student Libby Squires had previously been sentenced for voyeurism, outraging public decency and sexually motivated burglaries.

@NiceGerbil

The other thing is that the men who do the extreme things have usually worked their way up to it.

If society and the authorities took VAWG seriously then some of these men would be off the streets before they committed more serious crimes.

Absolutely, the fact that this man has also been arrested on suspicion of indecent exposure speaks volumes. There is always an escalation, murderers very rarely just suddenly kill.

This is all we talked about last night, me, my husband and my 22 yo daughter who happens to live close to Clapham Common. She already has a check list of things that she should sensibly do every time she is out on her own. What more can she do? It's up to men now.

I know Sarah's family. I can't fully express my contempt for the man who did this, and for the men who are implying that she shouldn't have walked home alone. We're most likely to be raped and murdered by our partners or ex-partners, in our own homes. So what exactly do you expect us to do to keep safe? What liberties are we expected to lose because so many men are sick fuckers? And no, it's not the same as 'well, you shouldn't have to lock your front door either, but we all do because we know there are bad people about.' Locking a front door is easy and doesn't curtail freedom. Expecting women never to walk anywhere alone is a massive curtail of freedom.
And time of day has nothing to do with it. I was attacked in the middle of the day on a busy city street. I'm so fed up of women being blamed for the actions of sick, violent men.

This is so sad and really brings it home that it could be any one of us. And every tragedy closes down women's worlds. I was talking to a friend about a park near our house which is partly woodland and how we won't go there or let our daughters go there - a few years ago a teenager, not alone, was raped there in broad daylight. No female friends I know go there now. We are too afraid. Too aware of the possibilities. My husband had forgotten all about it.

Absolutely Collidascope, both times I've been attacked by men it's been in public in broad daylight. My friend had the same experience, threatened with a knife in a busy street at midday for not responding sweetly enough when a man shouted sexual remarks at her. We aren't safe, even when we follow all the rules.

And whoever asked where our women's lives matter movement is, where indeed? Where is the outrage? Where are the protesters? Who is setting the city on fire until things change for us? Fucking no one. The thread about a reclaim the streets march was packed with posters last night saying there was no point, why bother, even with masks it was a selfish idea etc. If 3 people a week from any other protected characteristic were being murdered it would be headline news every single day. Just imagine it. If 3 Black men, 3 gay men, 3 transwomen were murdered a week in the UK you wouldn't be able to move for protesters and politicians promising change. Yet instead we are expected to just accept that this is our lot in life, so much so that it's actually used to justify reducing our rights and protections (the "men will always rape women so a little less protection isn't a big deal" argument we hear so often).

I am so so angry. I want to protest, I want to riot, I want to make my fucking presence known. But nothing will happen because women still aren't ready to stand together, and the public at large still just doesn't give a shit about our lives. And so it'll keep going on and on and getting worse and worse and one day my daughter will be grown up and will have had her own life full of male violence, male sexual aggression, male bullying and entitlement. That's if she's she doesn't become one of the 3 a week statistic. What can we do? How can we stop it? Why doesn't anyone seem to care?

Where is the Women's Lives Matter movement? Divide and rule seems to have been played so effectively on women that so many don't seem to identify with each other and see a pattern.

I would support a Women's Lives Matter movement. Yet even now people are commenting on social media that transwomen are more at risk. (I think the numbers are 143 women killed by men in the UK last year, and 0 transwomen.) Nothing is allowed to be about us.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

It's so shit, isn't it? I just remembered my housemate also being punched in the face by some random guy as she walked home from her boyfriend's at about 6pm when it was completely light and a residential area.

And then I got to thinking of Sian O'Callaghan who had been out clubbing and did the thing we're all told to do to keep safe - she got a taxi. And the driver drove her to a forest and murdered her there. I just feel furious. All these women killed and their families' lives ruined so that these men can have their few minute of fun.

Can you imagine the outcry if men were told to stay indoors in the aftermath of a raoe or murder of a woman - 'I didn't do it! I'm not a rapist! How dare you imply that I would...'

But women told to stay at home? That's fine, apparently.

Absolutely, the fact that this man has also been arrested on suspicion of indecent exposure speaks volumes. There is always an escalation, murderers very rarely just suddenly kill.

This is so, so important. We desperately need to start taking misogyny more seriously. No it's not normal for men to watch extreme pornography, to pay teenagers on OnlyFans to take their clothes off, to throw things and punch walls, to choke women during sex, to "fuck and chuck" women on Tinder, to go to brothels, to have their wives walk on egg shells around them.

The police need to wake the fuck up to the reality of where this stuff ends up and stop normalising and minimising this behaviour.

“”I’m also starting to wonder why more men don’t start a campaign against those other shitty men who can’t control themselves. “”

This.

Also the point that if three black men or three gay men were being murdered a week we would all be out on the streets protesting.

Also the point about normalising extreme porn, chocking, only fans, etc etc. We seem to idealise male behaviour and laugh it off and the courts and police still have the attitude he didn’t mean it.

So sad.

I agree @sagaLoren, though it’s also the “little things” that we’re supposed to just brush off - getting your bum pinched while standing at the bar, the shouts of “smile love” as you walk down the street, etc. It’s low level but it’s the foundation of all the misogynistic behaviour and if the NAMALT brigade just bloody called out their friends when they see them doing things like this then we could probably reduce the behaviour massively.

Dr Jane Clare Jones also hits the nail on the head.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1369914137090854914.html

@NiceGerbil

The other thing is that the men who do the extreme things have usually worked their way up to it.

If society and the authorities took VAWG seriously then some of these men would be off the streets before they committed more serious crimes.

The separate allegation of indecent exposure isn’t surprising is it? Every man who exposes himself should be on a register, be tagged, and ideally locked up because too many times it escalates and ends up with serious harm to women. It needs to be taken seriously

[quote CaveMum]Dr Jane Clare Jones also hits the nail on the head.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1369914137090854914.html[/quote]
Yes. Says it all.

Thank you for this thread, I am incredibly upset about this case because I live very close to where it happened. My young daughters saw her face printed all over the area and asked me what had happened to her. I couldn't even begin to explain to them that there are men out there waiting for any opportunity to harm them. What do we do? I agree that it is up to men to address male violence, but since they will obviously not do it, what can we do? I can't imagine how this poor lady's family and friends are feeling. Can we have a platform to report every 'small' incident, exposure, men following women, men being abusive in the streets? These things have happened to me and every other woman, but I have never reported them anywhere as I didn't think they would be followed up. As has been said, these men build up to bigger crimes so it's important to get a fuller picture. Can we have networks of women across the country keeping an eye on each other? Can we have some kind of tool or alarm to defend ourselves if needed? This shit needs to stop now. I am so angry and I hope we can turn this anger into something productive, and that lessons are learnt from this. Women lives matter indeed.

I've been thinking about how much time and effort and expense goes into understanding what makes someone become a terrorist. (What websites do they look at, what terms do they use, what subtle changes in their behaviour should we be worried about). And yet when there are alarm bells ringing all over the place about certain men it is so often minimised or ignored. We're told it's "just a joke", he's "under pressure at work", we're "kink shaming".

We need to stop with the "isolated incidents" bullshit now and properly understand the process by which so many men become violent or abusive towards women and girls. And then we need the police, and the rest of society, to start taking this stuff seriously. A good place to start would be for people to stop gaslighting us all about the need for women-only spaces.

This is a great summary of what we’ve all been saying about the escalation of male violence

GrandmaMazur it will be interesting when they say whether the indecent exposure was the same night or previously.

We KNOW these men escalate. If they took more notice of the stuff they and society currently see as nothing to get worked up about, then these dangerous men would often be stopped in their tracks before they got to the really awful stuff.

And being raped is seen as not much to get worked up about unless you're X type of victim and he was a total stranger and he nearly killed you as well.

Terrorists of the type the authorities do care about often have a background of perpetrating DV... Another area where recognising these acts properly as crimes, treating them as such, would take some really violent men out of circulation before they do really extreme things.

Oh good, she says what are men going to do about it? I hope they take note. And also what can we women do about it? Enough’s enough. To have to bury someone because a man can’t control his impulses is just sickening. We don’t deserve to live with this fear about ourselves and our daughters, sisters and mothers etc. Oh I just remembered, I posted something recently on social media to say ban porn because it’s pretty well known that a certain mainstream porn site often has underage girls on there (oh apparently it’s a top search and subject click), and also girls who were filmed unknowingly on there and the site first take these down even when asked by the girl who finds herself on there. Anyway I got a “lovely” message from a man telling me I should allow porn because men have natural urges, and porn helps them deal with that, and if we ban those sites then my three daughters would probably get raped.
I don’t think I need to add much more than that. You probably already know how I feel. I’m sure this is not unusual online. People actually think like that.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Can you imagine the outcry if men were told to stay indoors in the aftermath of a raoe or murder of a woman - 'I didn't do it! I'm not a rapist! How dare you imply that I would...'

But women told to stay at home? That's fine, apparently.

You can see the NAMALTs are out in force on this thread and protesting even the mere provocation that someone might propose that as a way to highlight the unacknowledged curfew on women:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4189216-too-many-men

This is pretty much my current mood

it will be interesting when they say whether the indecent exposure was the same night or previously.

28 February.

Every man who exposes himself should be on a register, be tagged, and ideally locked up

That'll be somewhat more difficult now now we've created so many opportunities for men to do this with absolute impunity. You have to wonder too if the increased ease of getting away with nonconsensual exhibitionism is going to lead to more and faster escalations to violence.

You have to wonder too if the increased ease of getting away with nonconsensual exhibitionism is going to lead to more and faster escalations to violence.

I am deeply concerned about widening the sense of entitlement to benefit from a culture of impunity.