Transwomen - rather eloquently!- answering gender critical concerns from the transgender perspective

[Vehivle]

Apologies if this has been posted before as its quite old! But I stumbled on it and this video (short and an easy watch!) plus the video posted by another person with the interview with transwoman Kayla - has made me feel far more sympathetic to transwomen.

I felt it was important to share as sometimes I come away from here feeling very strongly gender critical and fired up on the erasure of women.

But then I speak to friends who say I am transphobic which makes me question if I am indeed "on the wrong side of history".

Seeing these videos gave me a more balanced view and helped me see transwomen as more than the extreme activist voices I see on Twitter. I genuinely feel like I could easily be friends with these transwomen.

It's so difficult because the insight they both give has made me feel that what they struggle with is awful and I feel a desire to support them and accept them. But it doesnt clear things up with clashing issues such as self ID and womens sports.

Personally - I feel that the existing system of GRC works. Never self ID as it's too open to abuse. But I also feel that alongside GRC - there have to be caveats - much like what already exist with the equality act. Such as the right to limit access to some spaces on the grounds of specific reasoning - such as women abuse shelters, victims of male harm, women receiving personal care who request female only, open shower or changing areas because women reasonably dont expect to see a penis when undressing in such places. Or better - they should improve female spaces for better privacy for all. This can extend to allow women of faith more space and privacy to unveil, cleanse before prayer etc.

I also think the caveat should extend to women shortlists but that there should be the creation of transgender shortlists too.

Also - as a nod to my other thread - I do think in actual official records- such as crime records, birth records, death records - the natal birth should be kept on record. If someone has legally changed their sex, this too should be recorded of course! But that their natal sex should not simply be removed forever. And likewise - in crime records - I think there should be an asterix to indicate their legal sex is not their natal sex. This way all records can actually be accurate! You can view a record and determine how many were transwomen, transmen, natal men, natal women etc. And not having historys records essentially be falsified and misrepresentative as it is now with the police's self ID recording method.

@mumsnet - i hope this is better wording and thanks

Ugh not Contrapoints. They're a huge misogynist and totally disingenuous.

King Critical did a nice takedown of that video:

Is that Contrapoints? She always comes across as good humoured and thoughtful to me. Haven't watched it yet but will bookmark.

Hmmmmm did you watch Kayla's video? he quite clearly said he's NOT a transwoman didn't he?

these videos gave me a more balanced view and helped me see transwomen as more than the extreme activist voices I see on Twitter

First minute:
"TERFs don't like being called TERFs. They think it's a term of disparagement. Which it is."

No thanks.

Their "Terfs" video is absolutely vile. I don't know how people could miss the misogyny and disdain for women.

@minchinfin I watched the entire Kayla video. He did say "we" when discussing trans and used trans to describe himself. But he also is open about his diagnosis.

@aliasundercover - it's true she is a bit antagonist with her use of terf but it is in the context of her feeling under attack by feminists. But her other points are still insightful for me.

@SunsetBeetch I'm really looking forward to watching the rebuttal videos! I will watch later tonight for sure! Contrapoints seemed so eloquent- I'm interested in seeing the responses.

I've watched the first half (I have a certain amount of time for her but she's a bit self-indulgent IMO )

Thought she was very brave and frank at a couple of points - not really believing in a metaphysics of gender, very very frank and fair about benefitting from male privilege as a young boy/man. Really interesting point that transmen are expected to bring their experience of female socialisation into their adult selves but transwomen are not expected to do the obverse.

My understanding is that she gets a lot of shit from some trans activists so I think it's only fair to applaud her for this sort of thing.

I also really strongly agree with her point about transwomen being so highly incentivised to conform to gender stereotypes in an effort to signal their gender and be accepted as feminine. I've always thought we should cut transwomen a break for that.

Yeah I hate the 'fish' bollocks, fuck off with that shit, and obviously assuming all gender critical feminists are hateful (or will change their views if you explain nicely enough) is not a good way to start a conversation. But then I don't think many gender critical women are very good at starting conversations with transactivists either...

Will maybe watch the rest tomorrow. She's good value (just needs a bit of an edit...)

Thanks @SunsetBeech for the King Critical link - I haven't heard of him before and the video is excellent, very clear and rational.

It's not about whether or not you'd be friends, though, it's about whether or not boundaries are respected.

I don't believe any of the regular posters here imagine that the extreme activists are reflective of all trans people. Usually people go out of their way to note that it's the ideology behind the activism, and the abusive behaviour of activists (many of whom are not trans themselves), that is the problem. The conflict with women's rights is not coming from 'the existence of trans people'. It's coming from the unreasonable demands of activists.

But then I speak to friends who say I am transphobic which makes me question if I am indeed "on the wrong side of history".

No friend of mine would every try to silence me by suggesting I was transphobic. They might disagree with me but they would have a discussion with me and certainly support my right to have and voice an opinion about the erasure of women's rights.

I don't think many gender critical women are very good at starting conversations with transactivists either...

In my experience, you don't get a chance to start them; you say something innocuous about women's rights and then you receive harassment and abuse. Not sure it's quite a fair comparison...

Contrapoints would probably say the same about her experience with gender critical activists though? I prefer the hands-across-the-aisle approach myself. Transwomen aren't my enemy even if I disagree with them.

[quote Vehivle]@minchinfin I watched the entire Kayla video. He did say "we" when discussing trans and used trans to describe himself. But he also is open about his diagnosis.

@aliasundercover - it's true she is a bit antagonist with her use of terf but it is in the context of her feeling under attack by feminists. But her other points are still insightful for me.[/quote]
He said we and used trans to describe himself, but he said he wasn't a woman or a transwoman - he seemed clear in his mind that he was a man with AGP.

@notyourhandmaid

I don't think many gender critical women are very good at starting conversations with transactivists either...

In my experience, you don't get a chance to start them; you say something innocuous about women's rights and then you receive harassment and abuse. Not sure it's quite a fair comparison...

That was definitely my experience on twitter, trying to have a discussion with transwomen - as soon as you make it clear you don't accept TWAW you get 'just say you're transphobic' usually swiftly followed by a block.

@minchinfin you're right, he did. He was a refreshing voice on the matter really.

@notyourhandmaid You're right - it is about respecting boundaries and so I am looking forward to watching the rebuttal videos as I did feel that Contrapoints did not make any mention of what are the key issues (to me) which is women sports, women spaces and womens rights to request natal women for personal services.

@MsFogi Its mostly friend's boyfriends who have called me transphobic when debate happened over dinners with friends (pre lockdown). My friends refrain from saying those words but they are clear in stating they disagree with me. One argument they make is that we often see non-binary in nature such as the seahorse, so it isnt impossible to say that changing binary can be found in humans as part of evolution to explain the existence of trans (and the rapid onset of trans in society). I personally cant get behind it but that's their view. They are also of the view that they dont mind sharing spaces with transwomen like toilets or changing rooms. I grew up in a much more conservative religious home so I accept that has probably influenced by levels of sensitivity to modesty. I'm one of those who strongly specified no male midwives but I appreciate many women are perfectly happy with a man delivering their baby.

My friends also have made the argument that sports dont bar extra tall women from competing - even though that's a physical advantage bla bla bla. You can tell we have debated very often on this matter! And I'm always left feeling like I'm the crazy person in the room.

I don't think many gender critical women are very good at starting conversations with transactivists either...

It's hard to start a conversation with someone who says 'no debate'.

Has anyone else noticed that 'no debate' seems to be used less at the moment? Do you think it's because TRAs realised nobody cared and we'd just carry on the debate without them?

I got as far as concern #3 on the Contrapoints video, I’ll finish the rest later.
Natalie hasn’t explained concern #3 very well. Natalie performs femininity because Natalie doesn’t want to be called ‘he’, but Natalie in no way thinks that being a woman means being feminine. Is femininity something Natalie feels pressured into being? Really?
Natalie agrees with MacKinnon’s view that anybody ‘who goes around being a woman, is a woman’. This is not a reasonable view in my opinion because I cannot be a man any more than I can be black, be a dolphin, or be dead. If a declaration is sufficient, then Rachel Dolezal is a black woman, and a 57 yr old married father of four is a 6 year old girl; after all, they were just going around being those people.
We get to the crux of the issue when Natalie discusses how gender is used to beat the most vulnerable people -you guessed it, non-passing transwomen! Oh why don’t those radfems call Kim Kardashian names, goddamnit? Which just goes to prove that radfems hate poorly-feminised males who call themselves women, because they’re transphobic. It couldn’t be because radfems are insulted by people like Natalie, who think that gender harms non-passing transwomen over and above say, women killed or sexually assaulted by males of any gender identity, sex-selective abortions, lesbians coerced into relationships by AGPs. No, it’s definitely the insufficiently feminine male who has it the worst in the gender lottery!

Underneath it all, Natalie cannot say what it means to be a woman. Natalie obviously is aware of AGPs who equate being a woman with being humiliated, and are aroused by this. Perhaps Natalie comments on this later, but I suspect these are ‘the most vulnerable’ transwomen Natalie refers to. I’m half-inclined to think that what Natalie actually wants is to be female, but being male, has no idea what being female is. Femininity is the closest Natalie can get to not being read as ‘he’. In effect, being feminine is the only understanding Natalie has of what it is to be a woman because Natalie has no idea what it is to be female. So yes, Natalie does equate femininity with being a woman, disingenuous for Natalie to say otherwise.
I wonder what it is about being a man/male that Natalie cannot accept. Could it be masculinity?

Can people change sex?
Should people lie?
Is it harmless to women to pretend woman is a state of mind?

Because my answer to each of these questions is no. Put simply, I believe lying about the nature of sex has catastrophic consequences. And even if it didn't, I would have no part of such a monumental lie. Because that's not who I want to be. Life is short, and I'm trying to get through it with as much integrity as I can muster.

Men remain male, from birth to death. Sex is immutable. Gender is a lie. Women are female, and we matter.

There are many people of both sexes who have and do experience many different emotions about themselves and the world. Sometimes they get comfort from trying to be someone else. But at the end of the day validating them for being something/Someone they are not does not really deal with the problem and just adds a load of crap onto women, in this case.

Ah Contrapoints. It's like watching a video explaining why evolution-believers are not really 100% evil while she gently pointing out some flaws with creationism (as if she is sooo radical to think dinosaur fossils might be real) throughout assuming that intelligent design is the obvious truth of all right-thinking people.

Contrapoints is way overrated, gimmicky and awful.

Actually, she persuaded me towards a more GC attitude. Reproduction is not important because it makes me a victim! Motherhood is a strength and it's shaped my whole life. Its crazy to equate that to businessmen sleazing on you. Just a massive disconnect of perspective.