Transwomen - rather eloquently!- answering gender critical concerns from the transgender perspective

[Vehivle]

Apologies if this has been posted before as its quite old! But I stumbled on it and this video (short and an easy watch!) plus the video posted by another person with the interview with transwoman Kayla - has made me feel far more sympathetic to transwomen.

I felt it was important to share as sometimes I come away from here feeling very strongly gender critical and fired up on the erasure of women.

But then I speak to friends who say I am transphobic which makes me question if I am indeed "on the wrong side of history".

Seeing these videos gave me a more balanced view and helped me see transwomen as more than the extreme activist voices I see on Twitter. I genuinely feel like I could easily be friends with these transwomen.

It's so difficult because the insight they both give has made me feel that what they struggle with is awful and I feel a desire to support them and accept them. But it doesnt clear things up with clashing issues such as self ID and womens sports.

Personally - I feel that the existing system of GRC works. Never self ID as it's too open to abuse. But I also feel that alongside GRC - there have to be caveats - much like what already exist with the equality act. Such as the right to limit access to some spaces on the grounds of specific reasoning - such as women abuse shelters, victims of male harm, women receiving personal care who request female only, open shower or changing areas because women reasonably dont expect to see a penis when undressing in such places. Or better - they should improve female spaces for better privacy for all. This can extend to allow women of faith more space and privacy to unveil, cleanse before prayer etc.

I also think the caveat should extend to women shortlists but that there should be the creation of transgender shortlists too.

Also - as a nod to my other thread - I do think in actual official records- such as crime records, birth records, death records - the natal birth should be kept on record. If someone has legally changed their sex, this too should be recorded of course! But that their natal sex should not simply be removed forever. And likewise - in crime records - I think there should be an asterix to indicate their legal sex is not their natal sex. This way all records can actually be accurate! You can view a record and determine how many were transwomen, transmen, natal men, natal women etc. And not having historys records essentially be falsified and misrepresentative as it is now with the police's self ID recording method.

The video posted in the opening posts has its amusing moments. I'd enjoy listening to Contrapoints doing something like film, restaurant, book or fashion show reviews.

This is Contrapoints and Blaire White from 4 years ago. I've only listened to 8 minutes of it but I think it's worth giving the first few minutes a listen. There's one speaker making sense and it's not Contrapoints.

@SunsetBeetch

Omg I watched King Critical. And subscribed! I shall be watching his other videos over the next few days. He really did rebut her points very well indeed!

Gosh I'm so easily swayed it seems. I guess I'm still trying to find solid ground in all of this. So much of it seems like complete common sense to me! People cant change sex and validating a dysphoria surely doesnt help? And clearly it IS bad news for women and girls - we can already see it happen in sports and womens prisons. But at the same time - my friends around all me all disagree, their boyfriends vehemently so. I see society - seemingly rapidly! - changing in response to this new way of thinking and so it's so hard to remain fixed and sure of what is real. So I try hard to understand the other side and I read trans blogs and reddit posts to try and get an understanding- to hopefully have the penny drop and I can fall in line with my friends and the rest of society. Not feel like the weird bigot who doesnt fit in. But then I go on here or I watch a rebuttal video or read stuff by Miranda Yardley and I just cant let go of the penny. It sucks being at odds with my friends and society, but I guess we have to keep going. I just hope the curtain will lift soon.

You need new friends.

They date misogynist sexist men.

Imagine wanting to hang out with a bunch of men who like to tell you, a woman, you are wrong about what a woman is, with a side dish of hints that maybe you are a witch.

Break out of the sexist friend group!

One point that I got from contrapoints and other transwomen is they're always facing so much criticism. It must seem like a sea of opposition, and so I suppose it's unreasonable to expect them to distinguish between the types of opposition in detail. In terms of day to day interaction, it probably makes sense to just support them against it. But yeah, I wish there was a way to discuss the philosophy of gender without it seeming like a personal attack on them.

One point that I got from contrapoints and other transwomen is they're always facing so much criticism.

Well when this completely unconvincing belief system is forced on the wider world with no regard for the rights and feelings of others, that's the outcome.

It seems like you’re saying the curtain has already lifted for you, @vehivle. You say you’re easily swayed by arguments, but what your post reads like is that fundamentally, you agree with a gender critical position but feel the odd one out amongst your friends, so you’re trying hard to understand the self-ID dogma. You will struggle, because it’s nonsense! But good luck!
I used to partially buy into the TWAW mantra, thought the bathroom bills in the US were reactionary tripe, thought that trans rights was like the discrimination faced by lesbians and gay men. Only because I hadn’t really thought, it was just a superficial awareness of talking points without really considering the issues. Then a couple of years ago TERF slurs started popping up in my Twitter feed (I wasn’t even involved in trans rights or feminist politics, but it still popped up). I vaguely knew what a TERF was, couldn’t really see the problem they presented to trans rights, educated myself (as many women are ordered to) and understood that their position was entirely reasonable and the closest to my own, if I were being honest without being worried about being liked or appeasing others.

transwomen is they're always facing so much criticism

Unlike women who float through life with barely a judgement made upon them.

videosift.com/parody/video/Mash-Report-Women-Have-Told-Everyone-to-Just-Fuck-Off

The problem with Contrapoints (and that video is a perfect example) is that their style of 'debate' is to set up a bunch of straw men and then knock them down as bitchily as possible under the guise of being 'witty'.
I've never seen Contrapoints ever represent the gender critical argument honestly.

I'm sorry, I can't get past the nonbinary seahorses

The problem with Contrapoints (and that video is a perfect example) is that their style of 'debate' is to set up a bunch of straw men and then knock them down as bitchily as possible under the guise of being 'witty'.

Yes. Whereas our counterpoint, as it were, would be someone like Magdalen doing a response video. The difference being that, it's actually a response incorporating (albeit edited) the actual words and arguments of the other side. Most Magdalen videos are under 50% Magdalen. Most Contrapoints videos are 99% Contrapoints.

This difference was obvious to me within an hour of looking into the debate when I became aware of it. One side clearly knew the other's position, was prepared to present it, and had arguments against it. The other side either didn't know their opponent's position or were willfully misrepresenting it.

That immediately made me very much inclined to trust the GC side.

The GC's villains/concerns were real - "males already going into women's prisons?" Sounds implausible... nope, it's happening. TRA villains/concerns generally weren't - "murder epidemic of trans people?" Sounds implausible... ah, totally false.

I'll take Contrapoints seriously when they start taking their opponents seriously.

Time for my John Stuart Mill quote again:

“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”

The vast majority of TRAs do not remotely pass that test. If you're sitting and listening to Contrapoints though, you're trying :)

I believe Contrapoints knows actual GC arguments quite well - you'd have to, to dance around them so gracefully. But Contrapoints' viewers do not, thanks to people like Contrapoints' misrepresentation and the bizarre "block and stay safe!" mentality.

So this is not a proper civil rights movement - the people who know what they're talking about aren't trying to debate and convince of their arguments - they're trying to whip up a mob against an imaginary enemy, trying to keep the people on their side misinformed, and drive their policies through by basically emotion.

And there is a debate - it's largely a balancing of individual freedom versus societal harm. The TRAs are on the neoliberal "freedom" side, the GCs caring about the societal harm. (And the "societal harm" is of course to other individuals!)

I think I probably tend more towards defaulting to liberal/freedom principles than many on the board, but the harms of the TRAs' desired policies are far too egregious for me. They're trying to get many nonconsenting people dragged into their roleplay, and not respecting their autonomy and rights.

I've watched a couple of Contrapoints threads. They're very creative. There was one where CP pretended to interview a gender critical feminist (also played by CP). I was surprised to see the 'feminist' actually repeat some genuine feminist points. But the end was weird. As I remember, the 'feminist' becomes cruel, making the CP interviewer cry, then turns into a demon and drinks her own menstrual blood in the bath. Obviously viewers were supposed to forget any feminist points made and just remember the blood-drinking demon-terf.

Thank you @SunsetBeetch this was such a good video!

I watched the CP one before and although she seemed likable, I felt like she was mis-representing the issues, which could ultimately be less helpful overall. King critical's videos are great. He was apparently in university at the time- he gives me hope that the younger generations are thinking carefully about these issues.

This video is so interesting. Blaire is making a lot of sense and CP keeps rephrasing her sensible arguments as the least charitable/ worst interpretations of them in order to paint Blaire as objectionable based on an emotional reaction to the rephrased, misrepresented points.

I also noticed that CP talked over Blaire quite a lot, and wondered if CP instinctively did this because Blaire naturally has a higher voice and so CP is conditioned to talk over her.

Any "debates" like this are pointless unless the opposing argument is presented in the way that the opposing side agrees is an accurate representation of their argument.

Anything that just continues to make up "oh so you are saying xyz", without the person agreeing that yes, they are saying xyz, is just a waste of everyone's time and is never going to unpick the actual issues.

One argument they make is that we often see non-binary in nature such as the seahorse

Seahorses have binary sex. Your friends clearly don't know what they're talking about.

@NotDavidTennant

One argument they make is that we often see non-binary in nature such as the seahorse

Seahorses have binary sex. Your friends clearly don't know what they're talking about.

I bet they mean the fact that the male seahorse carries the young, which to their human sexist brains makes a male seahorse not valid as a proper male.

Seriously OP, most people don't think like this. That level of misogyny must be in other interactions with you too. It can't be good for you. You will likely be much happier if you find a way to make new friends as soon as you can.

I quite enjoyed the video in the OP. I didn't agree with her on all she said by any means, but I did feel that they were her genuine views and I think it's always good to listen to people with different views. I thought it was quite funny too.

I do agree with her in that I think there is a middle ground on many points. I also agreed with her that it's unfair to expect trans people to take on the burden of abolishing gender in a gendered world. I also appreciated that she conceded some of the points rather than dogmatically arguing them. However I agree with other posters here that she didn't tackle some of the key (for me) issues such as women's prisons, women's sports, and transitioning of children and teens.

I will watch the Blaire video when I have more time. I think it's great to see trans people with differing views who are up for openly discussing these issues between themselves.

Thanks OP.

I also agreed with her that it's unfair to expect trans people to take on the burden of abolishing gender in a gendered world

This is a good example of the issue I have with Contrapoints. I don't think anyone is expecting trans people to take on the burden of abolishing gender. I'm pretty sure no one can point to any evidence that this is being demanded of them.
It's completely the opposite. Everything we have seen from Stonewall to Mermaids to Gendered Intelligence is about reinforcing gender.
Instead of abolishing gender, they've just come up with a new set of gender rules that are just as sexist as the old ones, and even more rigidly enforced.
This is why I dislike Contrapoints. They must know very well that this isn't the argument but it suits them to pretend it is because framing the issue honestly doesn't make for any drama.

But at the same time - my friends around all me all disagree, their boyfriends vehemently so.

Ask yourself why your friends' boyfriends are so very invested in this when it doesn't directly concern them.

JustTurtles - I do see your point - but I think from the point of view of a transwoman like Contrapoints, if you feel very feminine and have a very strong innate drive to appear and be seen as very feminine, then that's quite difficult to do whilst also clearly presenting as a man. If the world had no issue with very feminine-presenting men, things might be different.

Its mostly friend's boyfriends who have called me transphobic when debate happened over dinners with friends

Ask if they've ever had a sexual and/or romantic relationship with a transwoman. And if not, why not?

A lot of men don't have skin in the game, and it's worth challenging them about this.

And @notyourhandmaid puts it so well:

The conflict with women's rights is not coming from 'the existence of trans people'. It's coming from the unreasonable demands of activists.

I can't imagine what it must feel like to be so at odds with your body that you want to change so many of its functions surgically and/or medically.

Or to feel so caged in by masculine stereotypes that you feel the only way to be yourself is to transition to femininity.

It must be awful & painful and a struggle.

But it doesn't give you the right to infringe on the protected rights of other oppressed groups. I don't see women trying to remove or fundamentally alter the right to sexual preferences, or religion ...