Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

So when people talk about their gender identity, what is it that you think they are referring to?

I don't know. I'm not sure it even exists. You're the one insisting that it's 'real'. What do you think they're referring to?

it's not sex stereotypes or how masculine or feminine their personality is - some trans women are butch, some trans girls are tomboys. And it's not their sexual orientation - some trans men are gay, some are straight, some are ace, some are pan etc etc.

So what is it? You keep telling us what it's not, but never what it is.

I told you - it's a person's own innate sense of what sex they are and scientists believe it is biological in nature.

You are the ones telling literally millions of people that they are not experiencing what they think they are experiencing, so it's legitimate to ask you what it is you think they actually are experiencing. Or are you saying they are either delusional or lying?

No one thinks that someone with a gender identity is lying about it. No one.

I accept entirely that some people have a gender identity (and invariably that their gender identity differs from their sex - as no one else seems to claim to have one).

In the same way I know that an anorexic isn't lying when they think they are too fat and someone with body dysmorphia isn't lying when they say they are ugly. It is their perceived truth.

Does that mean I entirely accept that it's not faulty wiring or a mental health issue? No. No it doesn't, I'm afraid.

I told you - it's a person's own innate sense of what sex they are and scientists believe it is biological in nature.

Which scientists? What is the innate sense of which of the two sexes you are? And where does this leave "non binary" people?

I accept entirely that some people have a gender identity (and invariably that their gender identity differs from their sex - as no one else seems to claim to have one).

In the same way I know that an anorexic isn't lying when they think they are too fat and someone with body dysmorphia isn't lying when they say they are ugly. It is their perceived truth.

Does that mean I entirely accept that it's not faulty wiring or a mental health issue? No. No it doesn't, I'm afraid.

Yes, this.

It's person's own innate sense of what sex they are.

Innate means born with it. No baby is born with an innate sense of who they are. In actual fact, in as much as babies know anything, for most of the first year of their lives they know that they are a part of their primary carer, usually their mother. They do not even understand themselves as an independent organism that exists separately from its mother organism, so the idea that a baby would be born with an innate sense of their own sex is farcical. (This is part of the psychological background to separation anxiety typical around the one year mark.)

Between two and three years old, children develop an understanding of themselves as being of one type of person or another based on their sharpening pattern recognition skills. In other words, they start to understand that they belong in the same group as men and boys or women and girls, but whatever sex they are, they tend to want to emulate their main carer at this stage (typically the mother) and show an interest in what she does and seek to do what she does, or wear her shoes, or use her lipstick. Not because they want to be female, but because they want to be mum. They do not know at this point what it means to be male or female.

Between the ages of three and four however, they develop a much clearer understanding of sex and of what male and female people are expected to do, how to behave and what to wear. Who has the babies, who grows a beard, who is stronger and so on. If they sought to emulate mum (or their primary carer) before, now they may take a much stronger interest in dad (or their secondary carer).

At the end of this process, at around four years old they typically start to show a strong preference for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with their own sex. That's such a strong trait in children of this age that this is frequently the moment when children who prefer the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex are noted for this atypical preference. And when many parents seek to correct their child's behaviour to ensure compliance with the correct stereotypes for their sex.

And the point when children start to be referred for their gender-non-conforming behaviour.

So if gender identity exists at all, it is not innate but learned.

(I don't know if this needs saying, but the ages I've given are averages. Some children develop faster and others slower than this.)

Scientists believe it is biological in origin.

And you quote from and link to a political statement to support your point? Why?

@Shizuku
One thing I don't understand when people insist that there is such a thing as a 'gender identity' which is unrelated both to someone's sex and to stereotypes, is why it is called a 'gender identity' and not just an 'identity' or 'personality'?

The word 'gender' (when applied to people, rather than as a linguistic term) is commonly used in two ways: either as a euphemistic synonym for 'sex' or to describe the stereotypes which are applied to people because of their sex. So it is always about sex and it is sometimes about stereotypes.

So surely something which is called a 'gender identity' is also about sex (and possibly about stereotypes). If gender is being used in the first way, to mean 'sex', then surely someone who believes they are the opposite sex (despite the evidence of their own body) is suffering from a mental health condition, because such a belief (that someone is something they are not) is a delusionary belief, and indicates mental ill health.

If gender is being used in the second way, to mean the stereotypes associated with the sexes, then a 'gender identity' cannot be separated from the stereotypes applying to each sex. This would explain why the examples of conversion therapy for trans people which you posted last night were all about male people being persuaded not to wear 'women's' clothes.

There is a third possibility, that a gender identity (which is neither to do with the sexed body nor stereotypes) is a sort of quasi religious belief, similar to a belief in a soul which is separate from the body. In this case it would not have to be related to the body, nor to stereotypes, but it would just be a belief in an internal essence of womanhood or manhood. Is this what you believe it is?

OK, so you accept that gender identity exists. That's progress. It's interesting that you mention "faulty wiring" given that scientists have found various biological factors that they think are likely to play a part.

I would have to take issue with the word "faulty". I mean both cis and trans women have a female gender identity so I wouldn't regard it as a "fault" as such.

Psychologists have looked closely at whether it is a mental illness and concluded that it isn't and they don't draw comparisons with conditions like anorexia. Being trans isn't a disordered thought process - a female gender identity is perfectly normal and natural thing, and only becomes a problem if it develops in a body that has mostly typically male sex characteristics.

@CharlieParley

It's person's own innate sense of what sex they are.

Innate means born with it. No baby is born with an innate sense of who they are. In actual fact, in as much as babies know anything, for most of the first year of their lives they know that they are a part of their primary carer, usually their mother. They do not even understand themselves as an independent organism that exists separately from its mother organism, so the idea that a baby would be born with an innate sense of their own sex is farcical. (This is part of the psychological background to separation anxiety typical around the one year mark.)

Between two and three years old, children develop an understanding of themselves as being of one type of person or another based on their sharpening pattern recognition skills. In other words, they start to understand that they belong in the same group as men and boys or women and girls, but whatever sex they are, they tend to want to emulate their main carer at this stage (typically the mother) and show an interest in what she does and seek to do what she does, or wear her shoes, or use her lipstick. Not because they want to be female, but because they want to be mum. They do not know at this point what it means to be male or female.

Between the ages of three and four however, they develop a much clearer understanding of sex and of what male and female people are expected to do, how to behave and what to wear. Who has the babies, who grows a beard, who is stronger and so on. If they sought to emulate mum (or their primary carer) before, now they may take a much stronger interest in dad (or their secondary carer).

At the end of this process, at around four years old they typically start to show a strong preference for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with their own sex. That's such a strong trait in children of this age that this is frequently the moment when children who prefer the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex are noted for this atypical preference. And when many parents seek to correct their child's behaviour to ensure compliance with the correct stereotypes for their sex.

And the point when children start to be referred for their gender-non-conforming behaviour.

So if gender identity exists at all, it is not innate but learned.

(I don't know if this needs saying, but the ages I've given are averages. Some children develop faster and others slower than this.)

Scientists believe it is biological in origin.

And you quote from and link to a political statement to support your point? Why?

The link has links to peer-reviewed science to back up the claims in the statement. Think of it as a portal to the science.

I told you - it's a person's own innate sense of what sex they are and scientists believe it is biological in nature.

Are you a saying that people are ‘feeling’ their sex? That biology has nothing to do with determining if you are female?

Are you sure?

Because we keep being told that no one is denying sex is real anymore?

And are you saying that many transpeople who acknowledge their sex is what they were observed as at birth but their gender is different are delusional? Because they state that sex is separated by body type around the capacity to produce large or small gametes. And gender is different and can change.

a female gender identity is perfectly normal and natural thing, and only becomes a problem if it develops in a body that has mostly typically male sex characteristics.

What is a female gender identity, and how is it different from a male gender identity?

@Shizuku

OK, so you accept that gender identity exists. That's progress. It's interesting that you mention "faulty wiring" given that scientists have found various biological factors that they think are likely to play a part.

I would have to take issue with the word "faulty". I mean both cis and trans women have a female gender identity so I wouldn't regard it as a "fault" as such.

Psychologists have looked closely at whether it is a mental illness and concluded that it isn't and they don't draw comparisons with conditions like anorexia. Being trans isn't a disordered thought process - a female gender identity is perfectly normal and natural thing, and only becomes a problem if it develops in a body that has mostly typically male sex characteristics.

I stand by 'faulty' in that the mismatch in sexed body and gender identity would seem to be a pretty big problem given that the solution is major hormone treatment and surgery? If it wasn't an issue that needed fixing, there would be no need for massive corrective procedures?

you accept that gender identity exists.

Well. Most people posting here have agreed that some people feel that they have a gender identity. Most of us do not have a gender identity and some people believe that they do not exist.

I stand by 'faulty' in that the mismatch in sexed body and gender identity would seem to be a pretty big problem given that the solution is major hormone treatment and surgery? If it wasn't an issue that needed fixing, there would be no need for massive corrective procedures?

Indeed. I can accept that there is a biological basis to transgenderism, like many psychological conditions. I don't accept that true gender dysphoria (and I think most people claiming to have it are undiagnosed, and probably don't actually have it) is unremarkable and exactly the same as people not having distressing psychological feelings that their body is wrong.

[quote OldCrone]@Shizuku
One thing I don't understand when people insist that there is such a thing as a 'gender identity' which is unrelated both to someone's sex and to stereotypes, is why it is called a 'gender identity' and not just an 'identity' or 'personality'?

The word 'gender' (when applied to people, rather than as a linguistic term) is commonly used in two ways: either as a euphemistic synonym for 'sex' or to describe the stereotypes which are applied to people because of their sex. So it is always about sex and it is sometimes about stereotypes.

So surely something which is called a 'gender identity' is also about sex (and possibly about stereotypes). If gender is being used in the first way, to mean 'sex', then surely someone who believes they are the opposite sex (despite the evidence of their own body) is suffering from a mental health condition, because such a belief (that someone is something they are not) is a delusionary belief, and indicates mental ill health.

If gender is being used in the second way, to mean the stereotypes associated with the sexes, then a 'gender identity' cannot be separated from the stereotypes applying to each sex. This would explain why the examples of conversion therapy for trans people which you posted last night were all about male people being persuaded not to wear 'women's' clothes.

There is a third possibility, that a gender identity (which is neither to do with the sexed body nor stereotypes) is a sort of quasi religious belief, similar to a belief in a soul which is separate from the body. In this case it would not have to be related to the body, nor to stereotypes, but it would just be a belief in an internal essence of womanhood or manhood. Is this what you believe it is?[/quote]
Think of it as "sex identity". Outside of GC circles, people tend to use "sex" and "gender" fairly interchangeably. In this case, they are using in a way that is more akin to what you would call "sex".

Trans people are not deluded about their sex characteristics - that's why medical transition exists. But nor are they deluded about their gender identity - their innate sense of their own sex that doesn't fit their other main sex characteristics. You can't change your gender identity and trying to do so to someone is harmful (conversion therapy) so they change their legal and social sex, and change their bodies to match their gender identity as closely as possible.

So it's really quite simple - sex characteristics exist, and gender identity exists. In the vast majority of people both match. In a tiny minority, the body and gender identity develop in opposite directions. No one knows exactly why, but as I mentioned above, a range of biological factors have been identified that are assumed to play a part.

Scientists continue to study the phenomenon and more discoveries are made all the time. For example this ongoing research:

www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4592/presentation/578abstract

That has found:

"...genetic variants in 20 genes that may play a role in transgender identity. The most promising of these include variants of genes involved in neurologic development and sex hormone pathways."

"I stand by 'faulty' in that the mismatch in sexed body and gender identity would seem to be a pretty big problem given that the solution is major hormone treatment and surgery? If it wasn't an issue that needed fixing, there would be no need for massive corrective procedures?"

Look at it this way - you can transplant a healthy function kidney into your body from someone who isn't a good tissue match. You now have a normal healthy body with a normal healthy kidney - neither are "faulty" but nor are they compatible, and because they are no compatible, you now have a major problem needing medical attention.

Well. Most people posting here have agreed that some people feel that they have a gender identity. Most of us do not have a gender identity and some people believe that they do not exist.

Yep. This.

No one disputes somebody of one sex may want to be the other sex. But they're not. That's the difference. Wanting to be and are, are different.

Wanting to be, and wanting names, pronouns and other signifiers is not 'are'.

And in this particular context, that of conversion therapy, it's very important to understand that. Especially when wanting to be, means that you are given rights, protocols and access as if you really are.

Well. Most people posting here have agreed that some people feel that they have a gender identity. Most of us do not have a gender identity and some people believe that they do not exist.

And it becomes much clearer if your gender identity is non-binary. In that you don't identify as male, or female. When clearly, you are one or the other.

That is indisputable.

Look at it this way - you can transplant a healthy function kidney into your body from someone who isn't a good tissue match. You now have a normal healthy body with a normal healthy kidney - neither are "faulty" but nor are they compatible, and because they are no compatible, you now have a major problem needing medical attention.

But your biological sex isn't a "transplant" and nor is your brain. For better or worse, it's you.

Trans people can only observe what their gender identities are. Your problem is that many people are happy to accept gender identity as the determining factor in someone's sex. You don't but others do, and so does the law.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Look at it this way - you can transplant a healthy function kidney into your body from someone who isn't a good tissue match. You now have a normal healthy body with a normal healthy kidney - neither are "faulty" but nor are they compatible, and because they are no compatible, you now have a major problem needing medical attention.

But your biological sex isn't a "transplant" and nor is your brain. For better or worse, it's you.

Indeed, but like the healthy kidney and recipient's healthy body, they are incompatible, and that incompatibility is a big problem that typically needs a medical resolution.

No, the law does not. Self ID is not the law. You have to get a certificate to achieve the legal fiction of changing your "legal sex". You cannot actually change sex, it's encoded in every cell.

Indeed, but like the healthy kidney and recipient's healthy body, they are incompatible, and that incompatibility is a big problem that typically needs a medical resolution.

You're making it sound like the "incompatible" gender identity is a quasi physical entity that would be fine in a different body. Like a soul. This is your ideology. I do not share it.

@Datun

Well. Most people posting here have agreed that some people feel that they have a gender identity. Most of us do not have a gender identity and some people believe that they do not exist.

And it becomes much clearer if your gender identity is non-binary. In that you don't identify as male, or female. When clearly, you are one or the other.

That is indisputable.

I'm afraid the word doesn't resolve into simple binaries like that. Some people's gender identity falls somewhere between male and female. Some NB people experience that as being neither, some experience it as being both. It's difficult for them to express their experience with clarity because our society makes no room for them, either socially, legally or even linguistically.