DS8 feels hard done by as a male..

[ZigZagInToTheBeach]

I'm not convinced that I'm posting on the correct board here but I'm going to go for it anyway as I feel it's linked to gender equality. Please be kind! I'm happy to ask MNHQ to move it if someone suggests a more appropriate place for it.

DS8 has become upset on a few occasions over the last year about what he perceives as "everyone hating boys". I'm not sure how to talk to him about this and am hoping for some suggestions. I'm really concerned that this is pushing him towards a negative view of girls. I want to talk to him about how great both boys and girls are (I have two wonderful sons after all so do think that boys are great but not that one gender is greater than the other) whilst also avoiding gender stereotypes and I most certainly don't want to paint one gender as superior to another. I have listed his 'evidence' below but please bear in mind that this is his perception, regardless of whether or not you agree with him.

Girls can join Scouts but boys can't join Brownies.
The boys at school will get into trouble for doing something that the girls don't get into trouble for, one of his examples is being asked to quieten down.
The boys at school get into trouble more frequently than the girls do.
Various comments made by my friends or family, eg. my cousin witnessing my boys playing in the mud and joking to me "Sometimes I wish that I had had a son but at times like this I'm glad I didn't", or my friend who comments on how boys are noisier and harder work than girls.
Although his teacher tells the class that she doesn't have a favourite pupil DS8 says it's obvious that it's X girl. To be fair to him, having listened or watched most of the online class lessons this was blindingly obvious to me too and this was before my son spoke to me about this.

First, I misread and thought you had 8 sons

That said, if they were all like my one, that would be sweet.
I know what you mean. Ours is a kind, gentle soul (as is our daughter) and I have on occasion been frustrated over the years at the general “boys will be boys” perception.

In the end, though, character will out and as he gets older he will become appreciated for who he is.

He's 8. I remember being that age thinking "boys are better than girls". It changed pretty quickly in the following 2 or 3 years.

@NiceGerbil

There's a BBC clip showing the difference in how people treat babies depending on their sex.

Only 3 mins to watch

The boys not reading thing is not because they are somehow not capable etc. It's to do with really unhelpful ideas about what boys ought to be doing and what is a bit crap.

Remember as well the whole education and exam structure was designed for boys in the first place.

Uh, no, the reading difference is's because boy's brain development happens in a different way than girl's does.

Similarly more boys are dyslexic which is not because they are treated differently or not trying hard enough.

Boys and girls end up in more or less the same place but they don't get there the same way and that's not all that controversial in education. (Nor is it particularly controversial to think this is true in the relevant sciences)

It isn't even all that notable in schools if they accept more variation in terms of school reediness and expectations around reading - in many countries children start school later which makes a big difference. Expectations around this stuff have really changed over the years with kids spending a lot more time in institutions, things like after-school care, and starting academic learning earlier, and less time in outdoor activity, physical activity generally, and free play.

If anyone said, oh, girls are getting in trouble for acting out, and the reason is they are being encouraged to act out and people think it is ok, I am pretty sure people would jump all over it.

Not sure why that video attached again? Oh well.

I have never said that boys don't try hard enough and I don't think anyone else has but you've mentioned it a couple of times now I think, why does that come to your mind?

The lowest attaining group is white working class boys I think? The difference between attainment between different groups of boys must surely be social rather than innate?

Also it's not a simple picture. Boys and girls both have different challenges.

I read recently that around puberty boys confidence takes off while girls plummets.

All children should be supported to do the best they can, in an ideal world.

In general i think children start school too young here.

I think that the implication has been pretty clear in several posts that the reason boys get into trouble more often is because they are not behaving, when they could. And I've heard people say this explicitly more than once.

It drives me a little crazy that there is so much ideological attachment to the idea that there are no developmental differences by sex that people resort to the idea that little kids are just acting out on a widespread basis, and failing to do well, and there is very little questioning of that.

It is true that white working class boys have the worst outcomes, but there are gaps and differences in boys and girls generally as well. Probably one of the reasons is that parents with more resources are more likely to be able to compensate for what's lacking in the educational system - if you look at children that go into private reading tutoring in primary education, it's very much dominated by 10 to 12 year old boys.

Interestingly, if you look at home educated children, there is no gap in things like reading for pleasure between boys and girls at age 12, which you do see in schools. But many parents of kids that are home educated will tell you that their boys were later readers, sometimes substantially - the difference is they can afford to wait and not try and force the issue.

You're sure then that socialisation/ expectations around behaviour and achievement make no difference?

Just to get to the crux of it- is your view that boys are done down, as it were, in education and society, and girls are generally favoured?

"The bbc documentary "No more boys and girls" is good for showing how stereotypes harm both boys and girls."

Another vote for this, of you can find it. It's a great programme - Dr Javid Abdelmoneim goes into a primary school and changes everything. It's quite radical, but he's such a charmer that it all works. And he does it properly, testing the kids before and after to find what effect it's had.

I think you could watch it with your son and it would really highlight for him the way that boys and girls are treated differently even in areas where they're the same (for example they're physically quite equal until puberty - a girl is the strongest person in the class) and where they have different abilities because they've been told they have; or because they've had different toys to play with.

It's also very clear about how the boys are disadvantaged by not being able to do the craft things that are thought 'girly' and by not being able to express emotion. Really worth tracking down.

I was amazed by how much my kids understood this stuff even at quite a young age. One thing I did a lot was comment on stereotypes in films and ads and things – for example in LOTR I don't think we ever see Liv Ullmann's character not either crying, about to cry, or mopping away tears, except when the soft focus is too hazy to tell... I think his idea that men are shown to be stupid may be from the kind of ad where women roll their eyes at male incompetence.

But I think it is tough for gentler boys who'd really prefer to be with the girls.

@NiceGerbil

Just to get to the crux of it- is your view that boys are done down, as it were, in education and society, and girls are generally favoured?

I don't think in terms of early reading achievement socialisation is much of a factor in male/female differences, no. Or, the "social" factor is an environment that is not really amenable to children who are later developers, many of whom are boys at that age.

Although - anecdotally I have noticed some real correlation with young kids who spend a lot of time gaming and reading issues, and the gaming group is very male dominated.

Do I think boys are "done down" in education? It's not a phrase I've ever used. Well, they aren't achieving at the same levels, and they are certainly disciplined and expelled more often at school. Would you say, if the situation were reversed, that girls were "done down"?

I would say that changes in education have strongly favoured girls in a few ways - pushing academics down to younger years, and certain changes in classroom management being the big ones at lower levels. All the evidence is that lack of educational achievement in girls compared to boys is not really the kind of issue it once was.

Given that the world to an eight year old boy is the school in many ways it's not a surprising observation.