DS8 feels hard done by as a male..

[ZigZagInToTheBeach]

I'm not convinced that I'm posting on the correct board here but I'm going to go for it anyway as I feel it's linked to gender equality. Please be kind! I'm happy to ask MNHQ to move it if someone suggests a more appropriate place for it.

DS8 has become upset on a few occasions over the last year about what he perceives as "everyone hating boys". I'm not sure how to talk to him about this and am hoping for some suggestions. I'm really concerned that this is pushing him towards a negative view of girls. I want to talk to him about how great both boys and girls are (I have two wonderful sons after all so do think that boys are great but not that one gender is greater than the other) whilst also avoiding gender stereotypes and I most certainly don't want to paint one gender as superior to another. I have listed his 'evidence' below but please bear in mind that this is his perception, regardless of whether or not you agree with him.

Girls can join Scouts but boys can't join Brownies.
The boys at school will get into trouble for doing something that the girls don't get into trouble for, one of his examples is being asked to quieten down.
The boys at school get into trouble more frequently than the girls do.
Various comments made by my friends or family, eg. my cousin witnessing my boys playing in the mud and joking to me "Sometimes I wish that I had had a son but at times like this I'm glad I didn't", or my friend who comments on how boys are noisier and harder work than girls.
Although his teacher tells the class that she doesn't have a favourite pupil DS8 says it's obvious that it's X girl. To be fair to him, having listened or watched most of the online class lessons this was blindingly obvious to me too and this was before my son spoke to me about this.

OP the attitudes of the other boys his age shouldn't be overlooked.

IME boys that age are pretty down on girls! It's hard to counteract what they hear at school.

You get stuff like. Playground is taken up by boys playing football. School says that needs to stop or change in some way. Boys see this as unfair and the girls being considered above them.

That sort of dynamic can go on though not saying that's definitely the case with your son!

@NiceGerbil

Yes. Why is it so hard for you to believe that mothers of girls don't get this sort of shit as well?

I'd be interested to know why you seem to think this is impossibly unlikely!

Two posters have posted specific examples in relation to boys.

I personally have never come across the equivalent that mothers of boys get, so yes, I'm not taking your unsubstantiated statement as an objective truth. None of the women I know who were pregnant around the same time as me wanted boys.

We're talking about people making comments about how boys are more difficult than girls.

If you want to check that it happens there are plenty of threads on here about it if you search.

People seem to be openly sexist when it comes to children. It's awful.

@MissBarbary it is usually stuff about girls and their friendship groups being so bitchy, not like nice straightforward boys who just have a physical fight when they disagree. Oh, and “thank goodness I don’t need to worry about DS being raped” tinkly-laugh slut-shaming once they hit puberty.

It’s generally older girls this is said about (age 8 and up), so if your friends all have babies you may just not have heard it. But it is definitely A Thing.

@MissBarbary

Firstly WTF from your cousin?

Does it surprise you that comments like that are made? I remember them as being fairly routine if you're the mother of boys only.

Someone actually asked me shortly after my son was born if I was disappointed he wasn't a girl. None of my friends wanted boys.

My ex SIL told people I'd cried when DS2 was born as I was so disappointed to have another boy. She wasn't in the delivery suite to my knowledge so fuck knows how she'd know.

I did cry when DS2 was born, but it was actually because I'd had a quick labour and the midwife said it was shock. I clearly remember sitting in the bed holding this tiny baby saying "sorry. I don't know why I'm crying. He's so perfect. Why am I crying?"

I'm not surprised, OP, I have three daughters and one son, and my son has had more negative messages around being a boy. He asked me once, also around age 8, why it was that girls were smarter than boys - he had the impression from hearing others talk, and I suspect especially from seeing depictions on television, that men are a little stupid.

It was also notable to him that there were quite a few activities meant especially for girls and few for boys, he somehow also thought all doctors were women.

Anyway, I think at that age my approach would be to reassure home that everyone has struggles, and that we can't always see those of others easily.

On the question of expectant parents preferring a girl versus a boy - there’s a thread right now on Pregnancy by a first-time mother-to-be who just found she’s having a girl. Her husband is furious/horrified, to the extent that he’s said he ’s “not motivated to have another girl” (he has a daughter from a previous relationship), is calling her “selfish” for asking for clarification of this, and is actively avoiding her.

In addition to the current and historical context in which girl babies are deprioritised, I think there’s also a dynamic that parents - especially first-time parents - may want a baby of their own sex. In reality, the work you do to care for a baby/child for the first few years really doesn’t vary much based on sex.

I’m curious, Miss Barbary : when you say "none of my friends wanted boys" do you mean that no expectant fathers in your friend group had any preference for a boy, or didn't mind having a boy?

@ZigZagInToTheBeach I would explore what he means by boys get in trouble more than the girls. In my DS school I’ve been listening to the live lessons and reading the comments that the children make on their learning platform and have noticed that the vast majority of anti social behaviour is coming from boys.

I think there are lots of examples where boys are able to do things girls aren’t. For DS we have been reading both good night stories for rebel girls and also stories of boys who dare to be different for balance.

I would listen to him but I wouldn’t agree with him on points that I didn’t agree with, challenging them in an age appropriate way.

On the point of a teacher having a favourite, I think it’s often the case but what is the outcome you or your DS want? I would view it as a learning point, there are times in life that someone takes a shine to someone else (sometimes for no good reason) just crack on with what you need to do.

@Callixte

On the question of expectant parents preferring a girl versus a boy - there’s a thread right now on Pregnancy by a first-time mother-to-be who just found she’s having a girl. Her husband is furious/horrified, to the extent that he’s said he ’s “not motivated to have another girl” (he has a daughter from a previous relationship), is calling her “selfish” for asking for clarification of this, and is actively avoiding her.

In addition to the current and historical context in which girl babies are deprioritised, I think there’s also a dynamic that parents - especially first-time parents - may want a baby of their own sex. In reality, the work you do to care for a baby/child for the first few years really doesn’t vary much based on sex.

I’m curious, Miss Barbary : when you say "none of my friends wanted boys" do you mean that no expectant fathers in your friend group had any preference for a boy, or didn't mind having a boy?

Absolutely agree. When you dig a little deeper into the sex preferred by expectant parents - mothers, for the most part, would like girls. And that’s why you see so many threads about boy-related gender disappointment on here, Mumsnet.

Whereas men, for the most part, invariably want boys. Or at least a boy.

Gender stereotyping harms everyone. If you have a girl you get told that she’ll be bitchy and a nightmare as a teen. If you have a boy you get told he’ll be noisy and messy and inconsiderate. All absolute bullshit.
He’s not too young to learn about gender stereotyping and how damaging it is, as well as learning about the history of gender equality and how it’s still easier to get through life if you’re white and male. As a teacher it’s a tricky one to balance so that boys understand male privilege without feeling personally blamed for it - but it is possible. And there are so many wonderful male role models out there who don’t conform to stereotypes to celebrate - male dancers and carers and artists etc. Check out people like Let Toys Be Toys for ideas.

He can coast at school, get mediocre grades and still get paid more than his imaginary sister,

The boys at school will get into trouble for doing something that the girls don't get into trouble for, one of his examples is being asked to quieten down.

So are the girls noisy?

Does he want to be a brownie? He could (OK he'd need help) create a boys brownies. Does he want to skip around a toadstool.

Sorry if I sound harsh but the scouts / brownie thing is a typical male attitude of, "well the females have something, why don't they do something for us?" when they could set up their own group / course / class.

Maybe start with international men's day and help him organise a celebration.

@NiceGerbil

Mothers of girls get stuff like this from mothers of boys.

It's not a one way street at all.

I kind of doubt that, gender disappointment threads go one way here.

That said, I hear nothing but envy and praise for families with two children of both sexes. Like, they got it right the first time or something 😂🤦‍♀️

He can coast at school, get mediocre grades and still get paid more than his imaginary sister

This is really not true. White working class boys are the social class least likely to go to university. IIRC there’s also a significant gap wrt leaving certs. The gap is not as glaring among working class girls—this is an important point.

It does a real disservice to assume white males are all privileged. Working class white males have poor life outcomes, for whatever reason. We should care, because their failures affect us all (in terms of crime, economy, family stability, drug usage, etc etc). They really are kind of a problem we can’t ignore.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-lost-boys-the-white-working-class-is-being-left-behind/amp

There’s a huge difference @UsedUpUsername between saying “white males are all privileged” and teaching the concept of white male privilege. The two mean very different things! The first is clearly untrue. The second means that being female or from an ethnic minority can add additional barriers to success that white males don’t face. I don’t think you’d find many people who disagree that it’s intersectional and wealth plays a huge role as well.

Thanks for posting this OP, I have two boys, too young for this to be relevant yet, but it has occurred to me that it will be a thing later on.

Giving opportunities to individuals to affect societal change (eg the STEM opportunity for girls only above) can be very difficult for those who “lose out” to understand, and certainly when it comes to racism and white privilege there are plenty of adults who don’t understand it.

I imagine it’s at least in part a case of waiting for him to mature in to these more difficult concepts, giving him the tools to understand when he is able to. Maybe it could help to look at parallels where it’s easier for him to empathise - perhaps homelessness and why it’s important for those of us who have and can afford houses and big grocery bills to support those can’t?

@GrumpyHoonMain they could have done 2 sessions then.

The second means that being female or from an ethnic minority can add additional barriers to success that white males don’t face

Sure, they face a different set of barriers.

But I was responding to the poster who thinks a white male can get mediocre grades and get paid more than his sister anyway because of ‘white male privilege’.

I don’t think it’s true for a certain class of males, and I’d like to see sources if it is.

Gender stereotypes hurt everyone - boys as well as girls. And boys often suffer for a lack of good male role models.

It’s good to discuss these things - to talk about how patriarchy is primarily hateful towards girls, but also has a negative effect on boys.

White working class boys are actually the most disadvantaged group. There is plenty of literature on the subject. There are plenty of groups/bursaries/charities for girls only or BAME only. There is a huge class issue in this country. I say this as a mixed race woman who grew up working class. I have had a LOT more opportunities than my white working class father. Why? Due to my race and sex I was able to apply for bursaries and training programmes etc.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/18/being-white-wont-hold-boys-back-being-working-class-just-might

My MIL frequently commented on how much harder she found it to raise her daughter than her sons. I don't think she's made the connection to those comments with the fact my DD doesn't initiate contact. If anything Girlchild has received more 'things' from her grandparents on that side than any of her 3 brothers, but that doesn't undo the harm.

I think it's really important to acknowledge the feeling that girls are favoured over boys in his world.

But it's also really important to ensure that you have a lot of conversations about stereotypes, about how we tend towards blaming groups of people rather than distinguishing between those within a cohort, how what can look unfair to one group (boys) can seem equally unfair to the other group for a different reason.

Eg: teacher X tells the boys off more often than the girls. Boys feel like it's unfair to them. Girls feel like the boys take up more of the teachers attention and time. No one feels there is a balance. Each group feels there is a legitimate grievance.

With scouts/guides I wonder if someone else pointed out this 'unfair' situation. I wouldn't have expected it at 8. But if it's a concern of his that continues maybe look together at WHY the situation is as at it. Look at the history of both movements. And discuss whether he/other boys actually WANT to go to brownies/guides or just don't like not being welcome. Also, do they actively want a single sex space for themselves, or are they concerned about perceived fairness?

OP, I am surprised at your DSs view given how the world is, but pleased that you are willing to act on it and use some of the advice posted earlier in the thread.

I have noticed people having negative feelings towards small boys more than small girls and there being differences in boys access to certain things because they are too "feminine".

I have one of each. My daughter (who is a handful) gets many compliments from strangers about how sweet she is. My son is six, loves colourful and sparkly clothes and is quite a sensitive character. He's got a pretty awesome attitude and just likes what he likes and doesn't give a toss if people say it's for boys or girls. Some days, depending on what he's wearing, he gets mistaken for girl by strangers and then gets treated in a warmer way.

He complains about how the girls have lots more options at school for what to wear. They are allowed the school t-shirt, pinafores and summer dresses, skirts or trousers. He often asks why the boys don't have any options.

One of his grandmothers gives my daughter all kinds of gifts that my son would really like. She'll happily give my daughter something "boy-ish" too but never anything she would think of as being "girly" for my son, even if he asks if he can have the same as DD.

He's mentioned his teacher saying that all the girls are nice and quiet and the boys are naughty and says he wasn't doing anything but gets lumped in with disruptive boys.

His friends are mostly girls and they did all go to rainbows/brownies. He asked me about it once or twice but, although I was sorry he felt left out, I did think there is a case for it being a female space. I've also talked to him about how women get treated unequally.

Just talk to him. As others have said the brownies issue is easily explained. He’s simply wrong about teachers treating boys more harshly. I’m a teacher and ime it is mainly boys that get ‘told off’ because they need it more, but girls get harsher treatment for the same thing. Eg if boys fight there will be pretty severe sanctions but if girls fought (which I’ve never actually encountered) you can bet that they would be dealt with much more seriously- people would be shocked but the boys get an eye roll half the time. I’ve witnessed colleagues allowing a constant low level of disruption from boys but the same behaviour in the same lesson from girls being dealt with firmly. There was a very interesting documentary about this a while ago. My dd loves football, at primary school the boys wouldn’t ‘let’ the girls play and would deliberately hurt them / not pass the ball If they were told they had to let them. The school started a (very popular) girls only football club. Of course the boys complained that it was unfair, they were outraged!
He’s not wrong about stereotypes being imposed - the ‘I’m a little monster’ vs ‘I’m a princess’ logos on clothes. But that’s annoying, or should be, for everyone! Tell him that girls that want to do fun outdoors things often have to buy boys clothes because they can’t find warm strong boys clothes.

I am surprised posters are surprised that your DS feels this way. And for the poster saying that your DS wanting a boy Brownies club as an example of male entitlement is mind boggling. This is a little boy we're talking about.

There are differences between how girls and boys are treated and the gender stereotyping harms both girls and boys.

As a mother of a boy and working in education, I've seen first hand the harm it does. It's something I am aware of and do my best to counteract both in school and at home. My DS and I have discussions about this and much more from time to time.

I'm appalled at the teacher who says girls are quiet and boys are noisy. Even if she/he said that in that class that's how they are, it's still one thing to think it but another to say out loud to the pupils.

@whatswithtodaytoday

Is he aware of the history of how women have been treated? That might help him understand why they're now given more visible opportunities.

I think this is important but also as all have said, looking at stereotypes is really important.

I do think there are as many issues with gender stereotypes for boys as there are for girls. It's still sexism and does harm boys, and then by default girls.

The bbc documentary "no more boys or girls" is good for showing how stereotypes harm both boys and girls.