Hyperbole spin-off

[BrandineDelRoy]

I found a lot on the Hyperbole threat that I wanted to respond to, but kept feeling that I didn't want to derail it. This will probably go nowhere, but that's ok.

I'm 45. When I was 19-20, I was anorexic. I didn't get diagnosed, but I lost many pounds, my hair started falling out, and I stopped menstruating. It only ended because my dad died. And that's ok. It shocked me out of it. I see now that I was never fat.

But I also got my nose "done" (I think "Eteri" mentioned this surgery on Hyperbole thread) when I was in my early 20s. My only regret is not getting more off. But I'm also glad I did it. My old nose was big. My current nose is still big, but acceptable.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm trying to say. But in my opinion there is a place for cosmetic surgery. I've never been able to make a "rule" for it, but I thought maybe it depends if you're having surgery to get more attention or less attention. My nose job was to get less attention. It worked.

@eaglerising

I think the concept of beauty is linked with health. When it becomes totally detached from health there is a problem with people damaging their health in pursuit of beauty. When beauty is too closely attached to health sick people begin to feel ugly.

There needs to be balance.

Really good points here.

@MissBarbary

There is no need to alter a healthy body. Everybody is beautiful, every body is beautiful

That's such a meaningless platitude

Why on earth do you feel the need to be so unpleasant, repeatedly?

It's not a platitude, it's a very simple truth.

I don't agree that the ethical distinction between 'good and bad' cosmetic surgery is seeking more or less attention. There's nothing wrong with wanting and enjoying attention. It's rather puritanical to think otherwise.

I don't subscribe to any view of our bodies as a 'god given gift' which we should venerate. I do think our bodies, as the product of long evolution, are amazing, surprising, adaptable and turn out to be able to do all sorts of things we'd never have expected, if taking them at face value, at one time. (Childbirth and breastfeeding are examples, also fitness and things we can train our bodies to do). So I think it is healthy and rational to respect our bodies, including their currently unknown capacities to perform and delight, for our own sakes.

There is a moral argument that it is wrong for our present selves to limit the capacity for enjoyment, fulfilment, health and longevity, of our future selves.

So I don't think there's anything morally wrong about choosing cosmetic surgery. I do think there is something morally wrong with a society that persuades (mostly) women that they ought to have cosmetic surgery, in order to fit in and be accepted.

I do find some of the 'artistic', deliberately shocking uses of cosmetic surgery (devil horns etc), shocking and disgusting. But, that's its aim, so success all round.

In terms of the comparison to anorexia etc, the clear difference is whether the intervention is healthy for the person doing it and, whether they making that choice in sound mind.

In terms of the comparison to anorexia etc, the clear difference is whether the intervention is healthy for the person doing it and, whether they making that choice in sound mind.

There are (mortal) health risks with all surgery.

That's true - mortal risks of all surgery. They are quantified risks.

The same is true of childbirth. Is there some perfect number of children we should consider it ethical to have, before taking the risks associated with another pregnancy becomes morally unacceptable?

Most choices come with risks.

It's not a platitude, it's a very simple truth

I file it under 'well-meaning untruth'. Like telling a child it can be anything it wants to be: there aren't many clumsy prima ballerinas, after all.

Beauty and health are related but different things. I'm not sure you can be truly beautiful without exuding healthiness but it is quite possible to be healthy and not beautiful.

@theThreeofWeevils

It's not a platitude, it's a very simple truth

I file it under 'well-meaning untruth'. Like telling a child it can be anything it wants to be: there aren't many clumsy prima ballerinas, after all.

It's not a very simple truth. I've seen posts on FWR from women who are quite happy that they are not beautiful or pretty and find it a patronising lie.

Also on FWR we are constantly told words mean something- if everybody is beautiful then that word has no meaning.

Okay, then.

I'm an artist, I've spent a lot of my life drawing and painting people and philosophically investigating ideas about 'beauty'.

It's not 'well meaning' to say that everyone is beautiful. It's just factual. The simple and undeniable truth is that 'beauty' is a completely subjective term defined by the observer (in the eye of the observer), cultural standards vary enormously according to place and period, and every body/everybody has their own visual appeal, fascination, unique appearance if one brings the right way of looking to the subject.

It's absurd to say there is one set measure that is 'beautiful'. Standards vary so wildly across culture/time/place that this is very quickly shown to be utterly arbitrary.

I have drawn hundreds of people, which means I have looked at them closely and for extended periods of time. I have never, not ever, not once, not found something in the appearance of any one person that wasn't interesting, rewarding and pleasing to look at. That might be the slope of a shoulder, the tones in hair, an angle, a texture, whatever. I've drawn men, women, children, with all sorts of bodily and facial variations, scars, presentations. A body is a landscape one can lose oneself in, given time, patience and open mindedness. I'm not being rhapsodic or romantic: it's not a groundshattering revelation to say that every body, as an aesthetic object, is interesting.

Of course, others may and do have completely have different opinions on this, but I can say with a degree of certitude that I am not offering it as a platitude, patronisingly, or in a 'well-meaning and inconsidered' way. I say it as a fact I have observed over many years of experience looking at people.

tl;dr - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 100%.