Hyperbole spin-off

[BrandineDelRoy]

I found a lot on the Hyperbole threat that I wanted to respond to, but kept feeling that I didn't want to derail it. This will probably go nowhere, but that's ok.

I'm 45. When I was 19-20, I was anorexic. I didn't get diagnosed, but I lost many pounds, my hair started falling out, and I stopped menstruating. It only ended because my dad died. And that's ok. It shocked me out of it. I see now that I was never fat.

But I also got my nose "done" (I think "Eteri" mentioned this surgery on Hyperbole thread) when I was in my early 20s. My only regret is not getting more off. But I'm also glad I did it. My old nose was big. My current nose is still big, but acceptable.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm trying to say. But in my opinion there is a place for cosmetic surgery. I've never been able to make a "rule" for it, but I thought maybe it depends if you're having surgery to get more attention or less attention. My nose job was to get less attention. It worked.

@BrandineDelRoy

I've obviously stirred up a nest. I wanted to talk about cosmetic surgery. I'll go.

No dont go. It's a good thread. Just dont expect a consensus

So labia surgery i think is completely unnecessary UNLESS its for a medical reason

And now women get it done cos they think they should have tidy labia NOT because it’s causing them a physical issue

Boob jobs for me would be similar

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

My ds1 was very upset about his nose

And ive had surgery

I will pay if either of my kids feel that way. My mother (born 1949) remembers her dad saying she could hid her nose with makeup at puberty. That is horrible.

I'm conflicted about cosmetic surgery. I would love to read a thread of what my very much better think.

I'm sorry I can't seem to type. I would like to hear opinions on cosmetic surgery.

brandine

We were going to get it done privately and pay but ‘luckily’ he had apparently a proper medical issue (we had no idea) and it was covered by the insurance

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

So labia surgery i think is completely unnecessary UNLESS its for a medical reason

And now women get it done cos they think they should have tidy labia NOT because it’s causing them a physical issue

Boob jobs for me would be similar

Unnecessary for who? My boob job wasn't unnecessary for me.

Apologies tellme

You were exactly who i was thinking of when i said medical issue

Reconstructive after a mastectomy, making up the difference between massively different boobs, no boobs at all

I obviously didnt make that clear ...the nhs cover things like that and reductions obviously

Unnecessary for who? My boob job wasn't unnecessary for me

My surgery wasn’t unnecessary for me either

It's a good topic for nuanced discussion. I don't feel as strongly about cosmetic surgery as you might imagine. I suppose my view is that we're all products of our environment, and we all choose which battles to fight and when we're ready to surrender. How we relate to our bodies, and how we appreciate them is so complex. If my body was a temple that I wanted to keep optimally healthy, I'd exercise more. And eat better. And sleep better. But I grew up in a society that didn't exactly make all of those things easy or second nature. I'm used to my way of life, and these things, they're an uphill struggle. Habits die hard.
Similarly, I grew up in a society that upholds a particular standard of 'beauty', and it's hard to become immune to the bombardment of that standard and the poor self esteem resulting from realising you fail to measure up.

Sometimes it's the work of a lifetime to learn to think and behave and feel differently. And sometimes the work required to unlearn one's self-criticism is too much.
So if a woman throws in the towel and thinks, damn it, I've weighed it all up and decided I'm getting an eyelift and then I'm getting on with my life, I'm not inclined to be judgemental. Better if she can feel she doesn't need to. But not such an enormous big deal.

Where the line is between "I'm getting this done so that I can stop being annoyed by my droopy eyes and move on" and "I'm in intense distress with my normal healthy body and can't live with myself like this" is probably where counselling should kick in.

But is it wrong to get cosmetic surgery so you aren't abused?

It's wrong you ever felt you needed to. It's not wrong that you did it. It's your body, you can do what you what to it, and if it makes you more comfortable in this pretty fucked up world then I'm glad. However, I do think it's wrong that society made you feel like your natural nose was somehow wrong, or inadequate because it was too big/wide/' imperfect', because, well, it was your nose. Provided it did its job and could differentiate smells, that's all that should matter.

Even if it didn't, I would have hoped society could accommodate it, but either way it's saddening that you have ever had to go through a physical alteration to be happy. Feeling better about your nose post surgery doesn't make you wrong though. Not even slightly.

I'd rather people didn't feel the need to have cosmetic surgery in order to feel happy, because so often it's a result of of society telling them they are wrong, ugly, damaged, incorrect, failing, or otherwise unworthy of love or respect for the way they look, but given how the world is, and as much as I'd like an ideal world, we don't have it, so I wouldn't condemn anyone for getting surgery either. If you were a friend I'd probably find the situation privately sad, while being happy you were happy IYSWIM.

I wish there were an easy way to combat it. I wouldn't judge someone for not choosing to be the person to say 'fuck it' to common beauty standards, because we can't say what is necessary for another person in terms of their mental health and too often it's the people that fall into the ideals of classic beauty standards that are the ones to say 'be yourself'. But I don't judge any individual so much as the press and social media for promoting the unobtainable.

Brandine, please don’t beat yourself up. You did what seemed right at the time. Cosmetic surgery isn’t unethical. It’s not something I’d bother with, but I wouldn’t think less of anyone who did.

Why is it bothering you now, so much later? I’m concerned that you link it with being abused, or trying to avoid abuse. I know the teens can be a horrible time (mine were) but something made you so unhappy you starved yourself, and then had cosmetic surgery to get less attention.

If something bad is coming back to your mind and upsetting you again, seeing a counsellor or psychotherapist might help you deal with it. Or talk it over with a close friend. Don’t let it drag you down.

Thank you, Barracker. I was trying to start a nuanced discussion. I failed. 🤷‍♀️

I've never been good looking. I've never been the right shape or size. My nose is big, my hair has never had any body, my feet are huge and even my nails are like spades instead of normal girly nails. I was fortunate enough to realise when I was young that I was never, ever, going to be able to cut it in the beauty stakes, so I began slowly working my way towards accepting myself the way I am. I was a teenager in the 70s, before cosmetic surgery became an industry and before advertising was so relentless and so I managed to escape most of the self-hatred our current society instills in girls.

Now I'm 60 and there are days when I look like a bag lady: wild eyebrows, greying hair, nose bigger than ever, dry skin, chin hairs when I forget to pluck. But it doesn't matter, because I'm an intelligent, well-read, thoughtful woman who can hold conversations, makes people laugh, build sheds and cook for all my friends. I attract people who accept me for what I am and in return I pay them the same compliment. And I have a relatively strong, relatively healthy body still —a body I love more and more each year for its endurance and ability to take the ill-treatment it's received over the years.

I'm sad that people with perfectly good bodies feel the need to have cosmetic surgery. I sometimes wonder whether people shouldn't have to have six months of therapy before having a cosmetic procedure. I try really hard not to judge younger women but some of those altered faces and bodies I see seem to me to be a cry for help.

In the ideal world you wouldn't have had surgery because no one would give you abuse for the way you look. But reality is not like that and we have to live in that reality.

Our society is very looks focused. You can get teased, abused, feel self conscious etc. It's hard not take it personally and internalise others' views of yourself. I think people who have plastic surgery should have counselling first, especially if there has been bullying in the past as the emotional trauma can't be fixed by surgery alone or even at all.

I have every sympathy for your experiences, OP and I totally get the reasons behind your decision to have plastic surgery.

There is no need to alter a healthy body. Everybody is beautiful, every body is beautiful

That's such a meaningless platitude

@TheMarzipanDildo

I don’t think it’s a surgeries a bad thing to do at all- it certainly doesn’t reflect on the morals of those getting it done. What it does indicate is how shit society sometimes treats people for something completely arbitrary and out of our hands.

I've never had plastic surgery but I don't think it's the case that someone choosing it might necessarily be because of abuse.

It's all very well being airily high and mighty about how plastic surgery is wrong and platitudes about every body is beautiful and not even attempting to understan what the person looking in the mirror feels like.

It would be unfair to link to photographs but there are many examples of rhinoplasty where the correction is not attempting to reach otherwise unattainable beauty standards but simply toning down a facial feature to the point the person looking in the mirror thinks, " I'm fine, I don't stand out any more"

It is a tricky one. I used to be very against plastic surgery, but my views have softened slightly over the years.

For instance, I used to be against all nose jobs. I felt that people should learn to love the features on their faces that gave them character. I don't have a button nose myself, and if I were to have forged a career in Hollywood in my 20s, I probably would have 'needed' to resculpt my nose in order to be considered for any leading roles.

However, I met a woman once who had a nose job in her late teens/early 20s. She had been teased about it through childhood. People would stop her in the street would comment. Now, how many people have to put up with that nonsense? Who am I to say that someone should 'embrace the character' of their face when that's not a problem I have ever had to face, despite my own less-than-traditonally-attractive nose?

However, I have spent money on adult braces, having several teeth removed in the process. Is that a form of cosmetic surgery?

In the past I have struggled with my breasts, as they are disproportionately small for my body. Dresses don't tend to fit me (it's fit and flare or nothing). V-shaped tops look ridiculous on me. Tops that give me an air of nun-like chastity would be deemed 'revealing' on anyone else. Bra manufacturers tend not to make bras in my size. As a teenager I worried no boy would ever fancy me. However, even then I always felt that getting a boob job would be wrong. There's nothing objectively wrong with my breasts. What would a boob job be for? To help me fit in with the beauty ideals of Western 21st century society? To make me more attractive to men? Is that worth the health risk of shoving silicon into my breasts? I figured that having plastic surgery would be selling myself out and I would end up feeling worse about myself in the long run. I didn't do anything - not that I had ever seriously considered it. The older I get, the happier I am that I didn't.

Apart from anything, I've realised that fashions change. Big breasts seem to have given way to curvy rears these days (thanks, porn) and it's my understanding that Brazilian butt lifts are now the way to go.

I worry about people, especially women, who are always chasing more plastic surgery. For some of them, I think it would never be enough.

Funny, when I needed a mastectomy, I felt reconstruction was almost (I was asked about it a lot) pushed. Surgeons were conservative in their approach, I would have had a mastectomy straight away to avoid radiotherapy but I was persuaded not to, only to have to have one because the first op didn't give great enough margins around the tumours. Some people even seemed shocked I didn't want a reconstruction, I was asked how my husband felt about it? Except for me, I felt my breasts didn't really affect my overall appearance much. They look different depending on underwear anyway. My breast tissue was affecting my health. The reconstruction wouldn't have been a real functioning breast and might cause further health problems especially down the line. Plus they don't last forever.

For me, my body issues were served by becoming as fit and healthy as possible. So I lost the extra weight I was carrying and took up weights and strength exercises. And guess what? I look much better too.

And I took up running. That helped me live my body more too.

Love

I do have mixed feelings about it. I can completely understand someone having surgery to change something they have been abused for. I find it shocking that the abuse happens in the first place.

I did struggle with being very flat chested after breastfeeding, made worse having helpful suggestions of padded bras and knowing the NHS would "fix" it. Those things made me feel like I wasn't good enough.

It was easier once I found clothes that looked good and just got confidence back and now I don't care.

Overall I think that was a good learning experience to know that eventually It didn't matter to me at all.

@MissBarbary

There is no need to alter a healthy body. Everybody is beautiful, every body is beautiful

That's such a meaningless platitude

No it isn't. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all. Everyone is beautiful to someone.

I think the concept of beauty is linked with health. When it becomes totally detached from health there is a problem with people damaging their health in pursuit of beauty. When beauty is too closely attached to health sick people begin to feel ugly.

There needs to be balance.

And there is a message within healthcare 'Look better to feel better'.

Which sort of works, a bit, short term but essentially it is only about appearances...

I see both sides. I'd like all women to be able to feel positive and accepting of their bodies, regardless of shape, size and stereotypes/advertising images, and to live in a society where this is supported. But the reality is that we don't, and also that some features can cause a lot of unhappiness (and unrecognised physical impact boobwise because no one takes women's pain seriously). But mostly I think that adults have every right to do to their bodies whatever they choose to do. It's a personal decision.