Educating men about women

[Chriswt]

Hi,

I’ve been searching online and on social media platforms recently and have struggled to find any organisations or groups dedicated to the education of boy (and re-education of men) about women.

It’s so sad that there needs to exist a huge number of charities and support groups for women but I can’t find anything male orientated or encourages male engagement.

I may not be looking hard enough but I’d would welcome information from anyone who knows of groups focusing on education for men.

Thank you in advance

With the best will in the world - this is a feminist board - have you considered asking this somewhere where there are more men who might know about this stuff?

I know there's a guy on twitter - Michael something I think (I want to say Conrad, but I don't think that's it), from the UK who runs some kind of men's support thing, and I know there's a few mens mental health support groups, but TBH, for mens things, you're probably better asking men.

Michael Conroy on Twitter

mobile.twitter.com/MenAtWork_MC

His website menatworkcic.org/

Kotatsu,

Thank you for your reply

I’m not looking for support for me, I’m looking for information about pressure groups or organisations focusing on the re-educate men about feminism. Sorry if my OP wasn’t very well worded.

Michael Conroy, who Kokatsu mentioned and I have linked to, does this.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Michael Conroy, who Kokatsu mentioned and I have linked to, does this.

Thanks, yes it’s a start and already seems to be showing me what I suspected.

This is for supporting men in professions teaching males about sexual violence etc.

Men have a responsibility to educate themselves and their depends and so I am interested in what resources are available other than reading books.

Hmmm

Jackson Katz was on Radio 4 this week doing something like this. I thought it was quite good.

This is the programme featuring Jackson Katz...

Positive Thinking: How to Stop Men Hurting Women

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000sr3p

We've got a Men As Allies initiative going on at work just now.

I do believe we can't reach equality without men on board, particularly in those workplaces (as mine) where they are the majority. I'm not convinced this initiative will make the difference; it's mostly preaching to the converted, though even many if those don't get it. But it's all the men out there who don't think they need to do anything, that everything's all sorted, and as long as they're not actively groping a colleague by the photocopier, they're good enough. They don't think about the assumptions they've made that really affect women's careers, like assuming Sarah won't want to travel because she's got children, or that Claire won't want to bother with that promotion, because she's at the age she'll be thinking about starting a family, all that sort of crap, where they don't ask but assume, and Claire and Sarah are just left there wondering why Dave got sent on the Frankfurt job, when she knows most about the account, and why useless Kevin got promoted, and what the hell else can they do to prove they're good enough? Meanwhile, the men are patting themselves on the back just for having a woman in the department at all.

goodmenproject.com/

@The4Seasons

Jackson Katz was on Radio 4 this week doing something like this. I thought it was quite good.

Thank you so much, I’ll give that a listen, and it looks like there are plenty of other books and videos from him on the internet for me to read and/or listen too.

@EBearhug

We've got a Men As Allies initiative going on at work just now.

I do believe we can't reach equality without men on board, particularly in those workplaces (as mine) where they are the majority. I'm not convinced this initiative will make the difference; it's mostly preaching to the converted, though even many if those don't get it. But it's all the men out there who don't think they need to do anything, that everything's all sorted, and as long as they're not actively groping a colleague by the photocopier, they're good enough. They don't think about the assumptions they've made that really affect women's careers, like assuming Sarah won't want to travel because she's got children, or that Claire won't want to bother with that promotion, because she's at the age she'll be thinking about starting a family, all that sort of crap, where they don't ask but assume, and Claire and Sarah are just left there wondering why Dave got sent on the Frankfurt job, when she knows most about the account, and why useless Kevin got promoted, and what the hell else can they do to prove they're good enough? Meanwhile, the men are patting themselves on the back just for having a woman in the department at all.

Couldn’t agree with you more. But this shouldn’t start at the work place it should start at schools.

I have two young daughters and am always championing strong female role models for them to admire and teaching them their value in society.

I now have a little boy (18 months) and though my partner will make damn sure he’s a feminist to the core I still am sad to find that there is little out there demonstrating and encouraging men’s respect and understanding towards women.

At ages 9 and 6 my daughters don’t even bat an eye lid at the idea of same sex marriage or meeting my bothers boyfriend yet they will still come out with lines like “boys are stronger than girls” or “boys are faster than girls” etc.

This needs to change just like our attitude to sexuality and race

[quote TheRabbitOfCaerbannog]This is the programme featuring Jackson Katz...

Positive Thinking: How to Stop Men Hurting Women

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000sr3p[/quote]
Thank you 😊

[quote Longtalljosie]goodmenproject.com/[/quote]
Brilliant link Longtalljosie, much appreciated

Well men are generally stronger or faster than women. Child level difference- not really.

It's the gender expectations that I find irritating- girls won't like football etc. That is nonsense.

“boys are stronger than girls” or “boys are faster than girls” etc.

What an odd thing to focus on? Approaching and past puberty this isnt' an opinion, this is fact, there's no point trying to teach them falsehoods about that!

Whereas, boys are better at maths than girls, boys are just 'better' than girls, girls should have long hair, etc. is not reality based.... (speaking as someone who's mother has a pure maths degree, earned at the same time as I earned my electronics degree)

Don't lie to your children, just provide evidenced expectations!

I have boys. I tell them how tall they are likely to be (one tall, one short), I talk to them about sports they might have natural advantages in given their body proportions. I tell them the subjects that genetically they might be good at/I and my mum or dad can help them with (maths, computer science, mechanics, engineering). I tell them what they might find hard (oldest is dyspraxic).

Physical = possibly affected by sex
Mental = entirely up to you and your interests

To emphasise, as a mother of boys, my eldest, at 10, is within 2 inches of my height, and has bigger feet than me. I think I could out-lift/stamina him, but for sprinting he would already leave me in the dust (well, mud and snow)

At his age, I was 7 show sizes smaller, and another 2 inches shorter - there is no point lying to your children about physical capabilities.

@Kotatsu

Don't lie to your children, just provide evidenced expectations!

I have boys. I tell them how tall they are likely to be (one tall, one short), I talk to them about sports they might have natural advantages in given their body proportions. I tell them the subjects that genetically they might be good at/I and my mum or dad can help them with (maths, computer science, mechanics, engineering). I tell them what they might find hard (oldest is dyspraxic).

Physical = possibly affected by sex
Mental = entirely up to you and your interests

I certainly wouldn’t lie to a child, how could I lie to them with the information they’ve given me to work on??

I’m merely saying that certain “incorrect” opinions about girls vs boys are still alive and kicking whereas the views on peoples sexual choices have changed massively.

If my daughter makes a statement like “girls are weaker than boys” it is obviously incorrect and I will use examples to prove it.

The slowest and weakest boy in a class is not faster and stronger than the fastest and strongest girl in that class by default.

Sorry I’m really confused with your puberty statement but if you’re talking about what who is stronger and faster at a certain age from a statistical perspective then I see what you mean 🙂

Luke and Ryan Hart.
Coco awareness.

Amazing men.

My first MN post... I've been lurking for a while, came for the Feminism Chat for support and sanity on GRA reform and other concerns around gender identity. The topic of educating men is really close to my heart - most have little idea of the reality of women's lives. I have two teenage sons and a teenage daughter and I am committed to sending my sons out into the world with a clear idea of what it's like to be female and of how to be a properly good man / friend / colleague / partner. I have searched for good material aimed at boys - there is tons of great stuff on empowering girls, and some for parents, but nothing much for boys themselves. It's really frustrating as I agree with @EBearhug (did I do that @ right? Is it good manners? yikes newbie fear) that we won't reach equality without men on board. Re pornography, which I personally think is crucial to discuss, some of Fight the New Drug is useful fightthenewdrug.org/about/ but it's more for concerned parents and older young people, and a bit too intense. I'll checkout J Katz and the goodmenproject, thanks. Any other pointers very welcome!

The slowest and weakest boy in a class is not faster and stronger than the fastest and strongest girl in that class by default.

Eh? No one thinks that.
However, a 16 year old boy can break a women's world record quite easily in any sport..... Not the slowest 16 year old in class obviously, but basically your average normal fit teenaged boy.

Check the statistics

boysvswomen.com

I do think that girls and boys are now routinely being taught that there is no difference in strength and speed between men and women. This is really damaging to women as, after puberty, there are large differences in strength and speed. I've been told by my female students that I am being sexist in pointing out women are less physically strong, but to me it's a vital feminist point, otherwise we have the madness of mixed sex sports and the death of women's sport to contend with.

Back to your main point. I think it's a massive issue that boys aren't taught well about women. Most books, plays, artworks studied in school are by men and about men, and this is even more pronounced in boys' schools. I've taught in both boys' and girls' schools. Guess which ones spend masses of time and energy on topics like sending nudes and sexual harassment? The girls' schools. When it's the boys schools that need to be teaching about those things, but instead there is radio silence.

I've seen a quote from Jackson Katz about the use of language e. G. '1 in 5 women are raped'. It's always in the passive voice, and men are never mentioned, making it into a women's issue. When what we should say is 'men rape 1 in 5 women'.

A colleague of mine tried to get Caroline Criado Perez in to give a talk in his boys' school. Caroline agreed but it never happened because the Head didn't see how it was relevant to the boys....

I do think that girls and boys are now routinely being taught that there is no difference in strength and speed between men and women.

I think it also plays into the hands of those who claim (against the latest scientific evidence) that it's entirely fair for trans women to compete in women's sport. We know teenage boys can beat the best adult female athletes.