Anyone listening to Jeremy Vine?

[Chrysanthemum5]

Jeremy Vine discussing the census, and has just had a speaker on who has stood down as a Plaid Cymru candidate due to the 'transphobia' of the party and specifically mentioning Helen Mary Jones. Jeremy then asks if it's just a generational thing, and at some point everyone will just accept all this as the truth, and we just need to wait for people with old attitudes to go away.

I've been a feminist since I was a teenager, and realised how unfairly women have been treated.

But nothing has ever focussed my mind on the inequity in society as much as pregnancy, childbirth and raising children. It's sort of like being hit repeatedly in the face by a dirty nappy after that, I found. The gulf and division between males and females being-in-the-world becomes a chasm post-children.

And if you are the mother of daughters, then one looks at the world through the eyes of a girl, and - well, my blood starts to run a bit cold.

Compare whiney hair to this woman doing fantastic stuff.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4182919-Ebony-Rainford-Brent-what-a-superstar

Its said so many times. And it's true Arabella.

To some extent it is generational because for a lot of women it's not obvious when you are younger. Then you start working, and you realise that you are getting paid less, or you're asked to make the tea more. Or you get to the age where you might have children, and very subtly start being sidelined for projects. Not openly, no-one will ever say we're not giving you this opportunity in case you go on maternity leave, but it happens all the same.

This is what I say to my female undergrads when they ask about the applicability of feminism to their lives. I tell the to come back in 10 years, after they've had a baby, and the male colleague they started with has been promoted above them, or is paid far more than them.

I think one of the blind spots of second wave/Women's Lib was around motherhood & child raising. Because we were trying to show that the biological essentialism on which sex stereotypes were based (you have the capacity to have a baby, therefore that's all you're good at, and you must be "naturally" nurturing) was bogus. We separated sex and gender roles to do this. And many of us were young and hadn't faced the issues of motherhood.

Maybe it's something of the same thing with trans youths - they're not at the stage of their lives where they're thinking of making families or raising children? (I'm trying to be kind here).

I think one of the blind spots of second wave/Women's Lib was around motherhood & child raising. Because we were trying to show that the biological essentialism on which sex stereotypes were based (you have the capacity to have a baby, therefore that's all you're good at, and you must be "naturally" nurturing) was bogus. We separated sex and gender roles to do this. And many of us were young and hadn't faced the issues of motherhood.

I agree. "I'm not going to be defined by motherhood" - well tell that to the rest of society.

A little while ago Helen Mary Jones was forced to issue a grovelling apology because she said it wasn't right to compare transphobia to the Holocaust.

I hope she sues Jeremy Vine. If it's broadcast media, it's libel rather than slander.

I was driving. I had to pull over.

Listening to it was making me fold into my own belly button. So much self absorbed navel gazing.

Jeremy then asks if it's just a generational thing, and at some point everyone will just accept all this as the truth, and we just need to wait for people with old attitudes to go away.

The women on both sides of my family tend to be rather long lived (and then men, only not quite as long) so no hope there Jeremy.

The political situation is interesting - I’ve seen a few Plaid Cymru flounces and noticed also that there seem to be a number of people leaving the Labour Party because they haven’t sacked Rosie Duffield yet. Which is also interesting because many women are leaving Labour for the opposite reason.

Re Deputy Mayor of Bangor (isn’t 23 very young for such an office?) - it is strange that the Deputy Mayor seems to have no other issues of priority (I don’t really know what a DM does but I’m sure it is more than just about trans people).

Which party will these leavers be joining? Greens and Lib Dem’s maybe?

I was listening whilst simultaneously shouting at the radio. Such narcissism and lack of awareness. Predictably, the listeners they chose to allow on air were both in support. And again, no right to reply for Helen Mary Jones who's been harassed and bullied on Twitter by the hyperbolic youth wing (and those old enough to know better) of Plaid for ages.

As they say, don't let the door hit you on the way out. No great loss.

I did not listen I had work to do.

Regarding the accuracy of the census, it is a household survey. Do you honestly think if a child or young person considers themselves non-binary, a trans woman or a trans man their mum or dad who complete the form are going to say this? I doubt it very much, even if the young person is 'out' to their parents.

That "so agreeable when we're young" is the oestrogen talking.
Past 40/45 and I am so much less inclined to take shit from anybody than I ever used to be. I hope the young women who now smile and nod at TWAW will awaken and realise they've been played.

@HermitsLife

Jeremy then asks if it's just a generational thing, and at some point everyone will just accept all this as the truth, and we just need to wait for people with old attitudes to go away.

I'd better tell my very GC son to get with the programme then.

Somebody in FWR reccomended Gender a Wider Lense podcast recently and I listened to this gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/10-queer-theory this morning and it resonated to clearly with me. The reason I can't get my head around non binary identity is because I am too grounded in reality to really understand it. It also touched on the preoccupation currently with gender identity and sexual identity with so many people these days to the detriment of the rest of their personal development.

Its a really good podcast really made me understand a lot of the questions I have swishing around my head about this.

Ha...me too. In fact I only learned about GC Feminism from my kids. Sorry Jeremy , demographics won't ride to the rescue I'm afraid

Helen Mary Jones has been getting dogs abuse, and I think there is a campaign to have her removed from the party if anyone feels like sending a supportive email / card...

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Tough titty, Jeremy. I come from a long-lived family so, with a bit of luck, I reckon that I'm good for another 50 years of Terfdom.

me too

I found that extraordinary. A party political broadcast on behalf of the 'this is how you ought to think' party.

Isn't that what someone from Mermaids said after the HoL debate? "It's ok cos everyone who doesn't think like what I do will be dead soon".

This is the kind of thing a five year old says when they're cross. And these are people who genuinely seem to think they're on the side of righteousness and kindness and modern thinking.

I 'm feeling pretty old today. I was reflecting today on how my college age activism was spent volunteering a bit with groups that were anti-war and environmentally focused. Have the kids today just given the fuck up on the real problems and found the non-issue of sex to bleat on the internet over? So sad.

I have given up with Vine. He annoys me too much now. He's too keen to be seen as Mr Nice. His music choice is bland too. I like Terry the allotment guy though

I had to switch off after two minutes. We’ve all had enough to be angry about this week, without JV adding to it.

I heard the interview as well and was very confused by what the deputy-mayor had resigned over and the subsequent 'explanation' of being non-binary. I don't think J.Vine understood either but since his interview technique is not to actually listen to the replies that was nothing new. He did manage to say the person being criticised was not available to respond so they should not pursue that line. That of course added to the confusion about the unacceptable opinions which had led to the resignation. As I said I have the impression J.Vine manages his workload(1 daily TV show plus a daily radio show) by not listening so not being able to frame incisive questions or get adequate explanations. I am only saying that as a BBC listener and licence payer I do think journalists should be pursuing understanding on our behalf. And not expect everybody to resort to twitter.

I still don't understand the terminology of non-binary and why it is so political.

Hmmm so he thinks everything will be good when (I assume he means) women who are middle aged now start dying?

That's nice!

Also I had a letter today telling me to go online and do the census. I thought the court case was coming first?

Jeremy Vine is 55.

Do you think there is a concern that trans and non binary identities may be over represented in the census, by trans allies taking the opportunity to teach the uppity women a lesson? I cannot imagine there could be any possible mechanism for claiming someone has fraudulently described their gender identity (which is kind of the issue) and the data is anonymous, so there would be no personal risk that I see to someone doing this.

I say that as someone who was a student in Brighton at the time of the 2001 census, and who thought it was just hilarious to put Jedi as my religion . In my defense, I recognised at the time that we weren't really screwing the data, because Jedi was clearly just another way of saying atheist.

Oh I meant to say the one good thing about the radio 2 show is that it is live so you can get a sense of just what interviewees are saying or not saying despite the lamentable interviewer.

@Alicethruthelookingglass

I 'm feeling pretty old today. I was reflecting today on how my college age activism was spent volunteering a bit with groups that were anti-war and environmentally focused. Have the kids today just given the fuck up on the real problems and found the non-issue of sex to bleat on the internet over? So sad.

I've wondered the same, and to be fair, I do wonder if some of the gender obsession is actually some kind of displacement activity, because the sadly the real problem of the day (climate crisis) is just too big and too fucking hopeless for many young people to engage in.