Supernanny - hanging out with the abusive dads

[Jeanhatchet]

Jo Frost (Supernanny) has begun advocating for the inclusion of "parental alienation" in the Domestic Abuse Bill alongside the vicious men who continue to abuse their ex partners by alleging this in court. On Twitter she is openly engaging with some of the men who regularly stalk, dox and abuse women opposing the term.

It is a term with no validity. It has been rejected by the WHO as a term for abuse.

Women do experience men turning their kids against them but .... that is part of an ongoing pattern of coercive control and abuse. They are covered in law already at 3.1. 76. Serious Crime Act 2015.

Supernanny is not on the side of women. When women disclose to Family court that they've suffered domestic abuse ... their abusers are learning to use "parental alienation" as a counter accusation. It must not become part of the Domestic Abuse Bill. These are dangerous men.

I wrote about the whole thing here if you want a look. www.jeanhatchet.com/post/supernanny-putting-women-on-the-naughty-step

I know a couple, now split up, where the dad would gaslight the mum constantly, I saw it happen to her and he tried it on me many many times.

She now has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and so doesn’t have custody of the children. I believe that the constant gaslighting and emotional abuse caused the BPD, she never knew if she was coming or going with him.

He has very much turned the children against her, they all refer to her as ‘crazy mummy’. It’s absolutely heartbreaking.

i dont get why some women are so convinced men are evil.

my brother was physically, emotionally and mentally abused by his ex wife, to the point during the custody case over contact time with the kids, even social services absolutely panned her horrible behavior, and accused her of serious parental alienation.

Funnily enough, she's became a born again christian since the divorce, and has now turned to emotionally abusing her DD as she has come out as LGBT, but hey.. women aren't abusive are they?

My mum tried to leave my dad 8 times when we were children. 8 times and each time, we were brought back home to dad.

We were told later on as adults that dad had explained to the police officer, he felt mum was turning us all against him.

'It was just a small domestic.'

This was to the police, it never got as far as the courts or social services. Mum said she was told she's be prosecuted for wasting police time if she went to the police again. She just gave up end, her parents were overseas and no other family nearby.

Many abusers will be so versed in laying on a charming persona and presenting their partner is trying to take their children away from them, even though the partner is leaving with fear and abuse every day. DV organisations document and explain this clearly, the grooming, coercive control etc.

Why on earth is a reasonably articulate woman like JF believe such a lobbying group? And they are lobbyists at best. 2

I could add in my anecdotes here about cases I know where the ex-wife has clearly tried to alienate the children from their father. And others where the father was a useless bastard who tried to blame his ex for the lack of relationship with the children. The reality is that every situation is different, with its own complexities and everyone having their own version of 'the truth', including individual children. I think it is generally a good thing that it is no longer assumed that the mum is the good guy who always has her childrens best interests at heart, that was a necessary correction. No need to swing wildly to the other side though, every case must be looked upon on its merits. And of course sometimes, maybe more often than not, both parents are imperfect and get things wrong.

Male co-worker moved 3 hrs away from his kids with the other woman, then proceeded to tell everyone his 'bitch ex' turned the kids against him, when he was too lazy to do the travel. You can usually tell when it's real and when the man is a piece of shit.

@FluffyHippo

Erm, Nope.

Just stating the obvious - she's a nanny

When read something like this “ More than 40% of the killers in these crimes were mothers, with fathers making up about 57% of those who killed their own offspring.” from a U.S. article, I think it is best we look at both parents carefully. Putting most of your focus on one parent because he is a man and statistics say so isn’t going to protect the child.

@Blueberries0112

When read something like this “ More than 40% of the killers in these crimes were mothers, with fathers making up about 57% of those who killed their own offspring.” from a U.S. article, I think it is best we look at both parents carefully. Putting most of your focus on one parent because he is a man and statistics say so isn’t going to protect the child.

I'll just give you a heads up; the fact is that there is no post maternal care in the US like we have in the UK, and so post puerperal psychosis isnt picked up as often as it should be.

Its best to look at the figures for the UK, as our psychiatric care is different.

It’s a stigma than anything else. No one really want to admit they have a problem because they do fear they lose custody.
We do get some maternity leave though. I don’t know post partrum depression last though. But maternity leave usually up to 12 weeks.
Anyway, my sister refused to admit her depression because she knew it will be held against her in court but to be honest the father of her baby raised her child better because my sister did have a problem

I don't know that I think that the WHO has really covered itself with glory in recent years, or that the context in this case really transfers.

I don't have an opinion on the legislation, really, I could be convinced it is useful or not. But I do think that parental alienation, whatever you call it, is something that happens, and both men and women do it, and it is wrong and abusive of children. It should be recognised as an abusive act. I would fully expect that any parent who was abusive in other ways would not hesitate to be abusive in this way so it shouldn't surprise anyone that it happens that way sometimes.

I don't think this falls within the realm of things where a difference in views justifies saying someone else "is not a friend of women" or implying they are blasé about abusive marriages.

I read a very interesting article recently (which I can find if wanted, but it's behind a paywall) while researching for a project; the article looked at parental alienation and its impact in court. It found as an accusation, 'parental alienation' appeared to have more of an impact than allegations of abuse. That is, a woman accused of parental alienation was more likely to lose time with her children, than a man accused of abusing the mother of his children. This was found even in cases where both claims were made - it particularly highlighted the possibility of children not wanting to see their abusive father being termed alienation, with this being followed by increased contact time with the same abusive father they are scared of. The article was stating this as an already current issue in the court system, arguing that legal services simply do not understand the situation fully. Sad reading.

I know of a guy (US) who claimed this to get more custody time from his wife.

He then threw a game controller at his son's head and caused a concussion. Now the mom is back in court for full time custody with him only seeing the children with court supervised observation and the kids want nothing to do with him.

Someone I worked with briefly was entirely open with us about how she was alienating her kids from their father. We were appalled. The things she was lying to them about were awful.

Women aren't all saints and not all fathers are coercive. Far from it.

There are some awful mothers out there. But Jo Frost has a particular bias. I posted on this recently - her page on selling the family home im divorce includes some crackers on adulterous wives getting the house with her love while dad is 'banished to a poky studio flat'. A lot of the advice was legally incorrect and read like Father4Justice. Am assuming she has something major going on in her personal life...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4141580-This-advice-from-Supernanny-is-sexist-and-doesnt-reflect-reality

@saraclara

Someone I worked with briefly was entirely open with us about how she was alienating her kids from their father. We were appalled. The things she was lying to them about were awful.

Women aren't all saints and not all fathers are coercive. Far from it.

Absolutely, and you do hear blatent attempts to alienate or cut out the father encouraged by some MN posters, especially if the man has had an affair. Less overt but also damaging is the assumption/presumption held by some that the children 'belong' to the mum and that it is up to her to control access. This comes up time and again and is clearly a fairly widely held view

That is, a woman accused of parental alienation was more likely to lose time with her children, than a man accused of abusing the mother of his children. This was found even in cases where both claims were made - it particularly highlighted the possibility of children not wanting to see their abusive father being termed alienation, with this being followed by increased contact time with the same abusive father they are scared of.
This is happening to one of my friends. Her very (outwardly) charming ex, with his middle class job and big words is systematically destroying her life and her relationship with her children, just like he promised to do after she finally had the courage to sling him out after a decade of abuse. "Parental alienation" is the reason the judge has allowed him to still have joint custody, and all the while he plots to take the children from her completely-permanently. He doesn't give a shit about them, it's just revenge, and she is one of the best mums I know. I am so worried about her, and the children.

*Someone I worked with briefly was entirely open with us about how she was alienating her kids from their father. We were appalled. The things she was lying to them about were awful.

Women aren't all saints and not all fathers are coercive. Far from it.*

This
Maybe each case should be looked at separately with no perceived views against either side,

donewithitalltodayandxmas - "Maybe each case should be looked at separately with no perceived views against either side"

Agree 100%. There are five instances in my family or involving close friends where the mother was, how should I put it, "psychologically fragile" (?) quite possibly due to known past trauma (in childhood or previous abusive relationships), in some cases involving alcohol and drug dependency. It was the fathers who provided stability and safety and, when some of the children were abandoned by their mothers, it was the fathers and grandparents who took over their care.

In all cases the mothers accused the fathers of "parental alienation", in one case citing it as one of the reasons for divorce (real reason was wanting to move abroad to marry her lover). None of the fathers did this, instead providing reassurance that the children were loved and never bad-mouthing their mothers.

In all cases, the fathers did their utmost to support the children in remaining with their mothers as primary carers whilst being vigilant about their safety, supporting them financially and going to court to get agreement that they would have frequent overnight stays - in order to ensure that the children were fed, washed, had clean clothes, were provided with necessary medication, etc.

I have just written then deleted a far too lengthy account of the physical and psychological abuse the children were subjected to by their mothers and the desperate measures some of them took trying to escape. Just one extreme example, where "escape" included attempted suicide. In that case the 14 yr old daughter ended up in a DV Refuge and would only disclose her location when she was assured that she could go to live with her father. (She did not know that her mother burnt all her clothes and belongings as soon as it was apparent she had gone missing, not knowing that her daughter had attempted suicide but in expectation that wherever she was that she would not be returning home.)

My own father was a text-book case of the "charming man" outside the home who beat and psychologically abused my mother, my brother and myself. I have no illusions about how bad some fathers can be as partners and parents and how well they can fool outsiders. Having been very close to both parents in the cases I have mentioned, I also have no illusions about how bad some mothers can be as partners and parents and how well they can fool outsiders too.

I am sure some fathers are guilty of false accusations of "parental alienation" by the mother but I am troubled that the emphasis in the OP is on the relationship between the parents. The priority has to be safeguarding the children. It does them a disservice, will cause more trauma and will put some of them in very real danger if we do not acknowledge that either or both parents can be guilty of abusing their children in this way.

Whether this abuse needs a special label is a different matter. If it results in very distinct damage to the child that can be differentiated from other psychological problems in the ICD or DSM, then maybe it does. If not, then it would seem hard to justify listing it separately.

Good blog post Jean, thank-you.

I saw how abusive and manipulative my brother was trying (and succeeding with some family members) to paint my SIL as the ‘crazy’ parent.

Very disappointed in Jo Frost

@Jeanhatchet

Jo Frost (Supernanny) has begun advocating for the inclusion of "parental alienation" in the Domestic Abuse Bill alongside the vicious men who continue to abuse their ex partners by alleging this in court. On Twitter she is openly engaging with some of the men who regularly stalk, dox and abuse women opposing the term.

It is a term with no validity. It has been rejected by the WHO as a term for abuse.

Women do experience men turning their kids against them but .... that is part of an ongoing pattern of coercive control and abuse. They are covered in law already at 3.1. 76. Serious Crime Act 2015.

Supernanny is not on the side of women. When women disclose to Family court that they've suffered domestic abuse ... their abusers are learning to use "parental alienation" as a counter accusation. It must not become part of the Domestic Abuse Bill. These are dangerous men.

I wrote about the whole thing here if you want a look. www.jeanhatchet.com/post/supernanny-putting-women-on-the-naughty-step

Supernanny is a programme I haven't ever really watched.

However, I recently went on a walking holiday and got laid up on my own with the dog while I was there and watched an episode of Supernanny USA.

It was quite a troubled family and I think there had been some kind of bereavement, so a couple of older children who had lost their father then the mother had remarried and had more children with their stepfather.

This man had weapons in the house; I can't remember exactly what but I think switches or a belt that he was using to whip this one particular primary school age child - who was not his son - when he lost his shit with him.

Supernanny filmed some of this and sat them down at the dinner table and - because I work in a role heavily related to child protection in the UK - I assumed the outcome of the video was going to be Supernanny laying down the law and alerting the authorities to this man's abuse of this small child.

Instead she said something along the lines of - from what I can remember - asking him to put the weapons away 'for tonight'.

I was absolutely stunned. I have no knowledge of child protection law in America but to broadcast this programme in the UK and have a UK childcare professional witness this level of abuse and basically just ask for an intermission rather than alerting the authorities packing up cameras and going home made me feel like this would never, ever, ever be a person whose opinion I would trust in relation to child welfare.

@Pipepans

I'm afraid the accusation of PA towards mothers is used regularly by abusive fathers, as is the issue of child contact to continue to cause distress. It's truly astonishing how many abusive fathers claim they are being denied contact by the courts, if you believed popular media you would think the courts are overly biased towards mothers, however speak to police, social workers and domestic violence specialists and the reality is very different, it's very unusual for contact to be denied, even under proven cases of abuse, which is a scandal. There will be many friends, family members and co workers of some fathers feeling total sympathy for them being "denied" contact by an alleged spiteful mother, who would be horrified if they knew the real reasons why the mother felt so strongly.

This ^^

I know children who the courts send of to see their father regularly.

He raped their mother, emotionally abused her for years. Left them starving during covid and paid for nothing. But still he gets overnight visitation with 6 kids, 5 of whom are girls, one has send, and two are teens who don’t want to see him but don’t want to leave their younger siblings alone with him (they don’t know he raped their mum, but they likely intuit the risk).

I know another mum who was beaten so badly she went into early labour with her youngest. Then courts gave him unsupervised access to all kids over nights. He raped the eldest girl for years, left the boy locked in a closet over night for years, and was abusing the youngest girl who has disabilities from being prem because of his attack on the mum.

When the women spoke up about the risks their children would be at they were accused of pa, of using their children as a weapon, their parenting was called into question. Finally the boy tried to kill himself age 8 and it all came out and contact stopped. The abuser never faced charges though.

Pa surely is covered under emotional abuse?

I’m under no illusion that women don’t do this, my own mother did it, but why does it need to be classified as separate from ea?

Jf imho has always been a horrible example of how to treat children. She trains them like dogs not encourages them to be nurtured and raised. She punishes children for behaviours that come from their disabilities. I don’t even treat my dog as badly as she conditions children. I’d never trust her opinion on this.

@MrsHusky

i dont get why some women are so convinced men are evil.

my brother was physically, emotionally and mentally abused by his ex wife, to the point during the custody case over contact time with the kids, even social services absolutely panned her horrible behavior, and accused her of serious parental alienation.

Funnily enough, she's became a born again christian since the divorce, and has now turned to emotionally abusing her DD as she has come out as LGBT, but hey.. women aren't abusive are they?

My mother was hugely abusive. She knowingly handed me over to be raped by many men she had affairs with.

But the crime stats show this is the rarity. 98%+ of sexual violence is committed by men. It’s 3 women are murdered every week by men, I don’t even think it’s 3 men murdered by women in a year in the uk.

My personal experience of being a victim of my mother’s abuse (as well as many men) doesn’t mean that’s representative of the majority. Risk is assessed by taking into account statistical information and patterns. It matters that it’s known that most violence is committed by men, and that pa is often used as a way of abusive men exerting control over women. We don’t throw these facts out of the window because a small minority of us are victims of women. Stop using my trauma to shut down valid concerns of women.

@Blueberries0112

When read something like this “ More than 40% of the killers in these crimes were mothers, with fathers making up about 57% of those who killed their own offspring.” from a U.S. article, I think it is best we look at both parents carefully. Putting most of your focus on one parent because he is a man and statistics say so isn’t going to protect the child.

Adjust the figures for the reality that mothers do 95% of the child care, the majorly of zero sleep, all of the pnd, pna, pnp and so on.

If men did their 50% of parenting then the likelihood is children would be at much greater risk.

@theleafandnotthetree

I could add in my anecdotes here about cases I know where the ex-wife has clearly tried to alienate the children from their father. And others where the father was a useless bastard who tried to blame his ex for the lack of relationship with the children. The reality is that every situation is different, with its own complexities and everyone having their own version of 'the truth', including individual children. I think it is generally a good thing that it is no longer assumed that the mum is the good guy who always has her childrens best interests at heart, that was a necessary correction. No need to swing wildly to the other side though, every case must be looked upon on its merits. And of course sometimes, maybe more often than not, both parents are imperfect and get things wrong.

Agree. I don't think we do women any favours by not recognising there are a few real nasty pieces of work around. Every case is individual and the claims of both sides dhould be critically examined.