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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MOJ Prison Policy JR TODAY

999 replies

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 02/03/2021 10:10

Just seen on Twitter.

Will post links

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Ninkanink · 03/03/2021 11:16

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

You have to be able to define something in order to create laws around it. Hence the hoo haa around the 'erasure' of women and our anatomy, health-based terminology and parameters for segregation and protection from those who would harm us (men).

This is why the TRA lobby are so keen on that erasure (and are leaving men alone). If you can't define something you can't legislate around it. This is the issue they're now facing, having based an identity around shifting sands that are as nebulous, vague and indefinable as 'gender'. How do you legislate on the basis of someone when no one can tell you what it is, other than a 'feeling' and the outward embracing of 'girly' paraphernalia like glitter and unicorns?

The judiciary have got the last couple of judgment calls right. Let's hope that continues.

This.

There is only one standard that should ever be applied in Law and Legislation:

Biological fact, which is immutable.

RozWatching · 03/03/2021 11:17

@Cailleach1

Do Transmen go to the men's estate? If there are any Transmen prisoners. I also wonder how many state they are Transmen after being arrested or imprisoned and if it is comparable to the Transwmen stats.
There was a case of a TM with mental health issues who wanted to be placed in a secure unit for males. I think it required a court decision. Predictably it didn't end well and they had to be transferred back to the female unit, iirc. The indefatigable StillTish has written about the case, there should be a link to it somewhere on this page: gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/category/transgender-prisoners/
OvaHere · 03/03/2021 11:18

FPFW link
twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1367069799977803779

FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 11:19

Discussions happening around whether a policy decision taken without knowledge of all relevant information can be lawful

Was it unlawful that SSJ approved the trans prison policy without being made aware than the single-sex exceptions could have been included/1

The trans prison policy does not allow for consideration of all relevant risks - the opportunity to assess whether excluding a transwomen from women's prison can meet the proportionately test /2

The need for the policy to avoid discrimination to female prisoners must be fully justified. Not just the need to house transwomen somewhere. /3

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 11:19

The trans prison policy does not allow for consideration of all relevant risks - the opportunity to assess whether excluding a transwomen from women's prison can meet the proportionately test /2

I think these are the sort of technical points the court will look at. Did the MOJ misdirect itself as to the law and did they draft such a strict policy that they prevented themselves from exercising their decision making power and from taking into account all relevant considerations.

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FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 11:20

A policy can be discriminatory if it indirectly discriminates against females - putting females to a particular disadvantage compared to males /4

FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 11:21

A policy can be discriminatory if it indirectly discriminates against females

this could be the key thing they rule on. IANAL

FindTheTruth · 03/03/2021 11:21

Its not necessary for ALL women to suffer disadvantage by the policy - just probable disadvantage for some in that group /5

Signalbox · 03/03/2021 11:22

They have started tweeting but I don't know how to do links

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1367069799977803779

gardenbird48 · 03/03/2021 11:22

Thanks LangClegs so are you saying they have literally (sorry for use of literally) made up their own version of the law? As far as I can understand from the Explanatory notes below), it is pretty clear that it is the type of service or space that can exclude. Their version seems to be so far from the original that it cannot be called an ‘interpretation’, it is a new meaning.

If their version implies that lawful exclusion is on a person by person basis - how does an organisation do that fairly? What measures can they possibly put in place that says ‘this person can come in, but this person can’t’.

Is that the deliberate attempt to make it apparently so difficult for organisations to decide who to exclude that they end up letting everyone in?

Very telling that they only talked to trans groups on this rather than any advocates for the other groups that are directly affected!! ‘no man is an island’ etc.

733.This paragraph contains exceptions to the general prohibition of sex discrimination to allow the provision of single-sex services.
734.Single sex services are permitted where:
only people of that sex require it;
there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;
if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;
they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);
they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa); or
they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.
735.In each case, the separate provision has to be objectively justified.
736.These exceptions also cover public functions in respect of the “back-room” managerial, administrative and finance decisions which allow such single-sex services to be provided.
Background
737.This paragraph replaces some similar provisions that only covered public functions and some that applied to services in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. These exceptions have been extended to cover both services and public functions.
Examples
738.These exceptions would allow:
a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

There are other relevant bits as well.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 11:30

Interesting comment that appears to have come from LJH
“ But if EA really should have been considered, it doesn't matter what the SSJ thought about it. If it shoudl have been considered & wasn;t, then this was wrong.”

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BitOfFun · 03/03/2021 11:30

That's pretty comprehensive and clearly applicable here!

Signalbox · 03/03/2021 11:32

Sorry what is the SSJ?

LangClegsInSpace · 03/03/2021 11:32

KM is talking about articles 3, 8 and 14 of the human rights act.

Article 3 - the right not to be tortured or subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment
www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/right/no-torture-inhuman-or-degrading-treatment/

Article 8 - the right to a private and family life
www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/right/a-private-and-family-life/

Article 14 - the right to not be discriminated against
www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/right/no-discrimination/

LangClegsInSpace · 03/03/2021 11:33

so are you saying they have literally (sorry for use of literally) made up their own version of the law?

Yes, basically. They didn't just consult with TRA groups but that's who they listened to.

LangClegsInSpace · 03/03/2021 11:34

@Signalbox

Sorry what is the SSJ?
Secretary of State for Justice I think.
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 11:34

SSJ = Secretary of State for Justice

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gardenbird48 · 03/03/2021 11:36

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Interesting comment that appears to have come from LJH “ But if EA really should have been considered, it doesn't matter what the SSJ thought about it. If it shoudl have been considered & wasn;t, then this was wrong.”
let's hope that's a positive, jaw-dropping moment for the judge.

This seems to be part of the problem - the application of the EA 2010 exceptions should be the first thing they look at when making decisions like this. My mind is further boggled to think that it wasn't considered at all!!

Are we going to get more judge speak for WTAF like in Keira's case?

PurpleHoodie · 03/03/2021 11:38

Thanks for the links, and clarifications.

Will any decisions made in this case therefore be applicable in all other public workplaces?

Signalbox · 03/03/2021 11:43

LJH: But would the process of ax be diferent?

Does anyone know what "ax" means in this context?

PurpleHoodie · 03/03/2021 11:45

Assigning??

Signalbox · 03/03/2021 11:49

Actually it might be "allocation". It's used further up the thread too

LJH: is the problem re TW with no GRC that the allocation depends on outcome of ax process?

LangClegsInSpace · 03/03/2021 11:52

assessment?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/03/2021 11:52

I read ax as assessment

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Signalbox · 03/03/2021 11:54

Ah yes that makes more sense. Thanks :)

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