Men don't want TW

[SusannaMorvern]

TeensMinusTests
They don't want gender non conforming men to be accepted as men. they want them to be accepted as women. That's where it all goes wrong.

I've taken the above quote from another thread, hope I'm not committing the thread about a thread offence, as this isn't.

But the quote is a complete lightbulb moment for me. I've never really understood how MRAs are supporting TRAs, yes it's another opportunity for the MRAs to kick women in the teeth, but they tend not to be the tolerant sort who would support a minority group. Then it dawned on me, they aren't supportive, they just don't want TW as a subset of their own sex and their support is based in prejudice and not solidarity.

I'm probably really late to the party here, but I'm learning.

For clarity of the 'they' the full quote was:
However the 'TWAW' brigade wouldn't go with your approach because they want us to constrain our language and give over our spaces. They don't want gender non conforming men to be accepted as men. they want them to be accepted as women. That's where it all goes wrong.

TWAW comes not only from some men, but also women.

susanna

I think you are absolutely spot on

Apologies TeenMinusTests, I spelt misspelt your name too.

But my lightbulb moment, which was triggered by reading your post, was that MRAs (and maybe many men?) are only supporting out of prejudice. Women generally support to be kind.

I'm not sure whether some of these types care whether TW are accepted as women, just that their dividing line is 'proper men' and others. Non-men, as eg the Green Party would have it.

Though I agree motivations are likely to be different:

• Some men won't want GNC men to be classed as men
• Some women will accept GNC men as women to 'be kind'
• Some of both are busy being 'woke'
• Some are so non critical of thinking they believe the pseudo science drummed up to support the approach (and probably flat earth, and 5G causes covid etc)

I had this lightbulb moment too - they perceive anything “not manly enough” as lesser, and lesser = women.

You know, those support humans, not the proper default human (who is always male). The support humans can budge up and be kind and accept the unmanly males. They won’t mind - and if they do, they are nasty meanies we don’t need to concern ourselves with.

Exactly my experience

Man at work announced intention to transition, first stage was wearing skirt to work

The men were astonished that the women did not accept that the person should now use the female loos from that moment

She was also not comfortable with putting herself into female spaces.

I think for some men, stating TWAW further cements their view that they are 'proper' men and men who aren't 'proper men' are not-men - just like women!

Men have been using girl to refer to boys and men who fail to conform to cultural standards of masculinity for a long time. Run/jump/throw/cry like a girl. Don't be such a girl. These aren't compliments. TWAW is a logical progression of this attitude IMO. Males who don't live up to expectations aren't proper men. They're seen as inferior, just like women are. I can see why it makes sense to some of these men that transwomen are women - or more accurately, not men.

Everyone said the same as me whilst I took ages to type that

Men don't accept TW as men but equally they don't accept them as women neither, not really when only 2% would consider having relations with them. They just want them to be someone else's (womens) problem.

The men were astonished that the women did not accept that the person should now use the female loos from that moment

I have noticed that transwomen seem to expect automatic acceptance fom women when they transition and are surprised when it doesn't happen.

Yep. 2 categories. Men and not men.

Very much this. In the 70s and 80s the 'gender bending' popstars did so as men, whether straight, bi or gay. Why has this whole 'debate' become centred on us awful 'exclusionary' women rather than those awful exclusionary men? 'Trans Exclusionary Average Males' or something like that. They're the ones who should be being pressured about inclusivity in their toilet spaces and so on - instead they're probably relieved in their quietly homophobic hearts that the 'GNC' males are now expected to go elsewhere.

I had this lightbulb moment too - they perceive anything “not manly enough” as lesser, and lesser = women.

Exactly. And also, it appears to me, that for a lot of women it's not just kindness - they're flattered. Men wanting to not just join forces with the 'lessers' but ask their advice on hair, make up, femininity, etc. I've often seen a variation of 'You want to sit on my bench? Wow! Of course I'll budge up.'

Yep.

And in the case of TM, men either don't have to worry about it because TM are not a threat (sports, prisons), or they can exclude them with no major complaint (certain types of inheritance; peerages; Freemasons...)

Au contraire, DickKerr, you have put it very well. Male discomfort with male femininity is a major reason why gender identity ideology has been so successful.

The very idea that we would object to a man being so humble as to join his lot to ours...

I agree with this but as someone else noted, these same men, who want to push the TWAw agenda, do not want to date or marry these TW. So they don’t see them as women either, just as one of the ‘non men’ category. Oh, and they don’t accept TM as men. But no one calls them out on it because they are all too busy shouting at GC women 🙄

I had this lightbulb moment too - they perceive anything “not manly enough” as lesser, and lesser = women.

This probably goes some way to explain why so many TW seem to come from extremely masculine fields such as the military.

I also think from MRAs and men who are not full on MRA but feel feminism treats men unfairly, there’s a feeling of “You are the ones who wanted to get rid of any difference between men and women, so suck it up”

That’s due to their total failure to see what Feminism is really about obviously, but then again if they understood it they wouldn’t be MRA/red pillers/incels in the first place.

I expect it is nothing to do with views on women, but more to not wanting men who wish to transgender being near them. A genuine transphobia.

This is Karen Davis on Sasha Shaw who is a black TW, who blames black women for the fact that black men don't want to sleep with TW.

I think men's reluctance to embrace trans men as 'real' men has a lot to do with the increasing popularity of the gender-neutral pronoun 'they'.

Agree that for men they win, keep the men they see as 'not proper men' out of their spaces.

The fight should be to make men less judgemental and stop gatekeeping the cat category of men so tightly.

Agree with everyone else. Lots of men are so focused on their own reproductive system and its delights that they divide the world into 'men' and 'other', and other means 'no penis, or, in a few cases, has a penis but has voluntarily left the category of male by dressing/behaving like a girl and taking hormones to develop female secondary sexual characteristics'. There is no recognition from these sexists that women and girls are not just non-males. They don't want to think about our reproductive systems, which are messy and complicated and lead to a man having to take a back seat at times while all the attention is on a woman.

Obviously not all men are like this, but quite a lot are.