Men don't want TW

[SusannaMorvern]

TeensMinusTests
They don't want gender non conforming men to be accepted as men. they want them to be accepted as women. That's where it all goes wrong.

I've taken the above quote from another thread, hope I'm not committing the thread about a thread offence, as this isn't.

But the quote is a complete lightbulb moment for me. I've never really understood how MRAs are supporting TRAs, yes it's another opportunity for the MRAs to kick women in the teeth, but they tend not to be the tolerant sort who would support a minority group. Then it dawned on me, they aren't supportive, they just don't want TW as a subset of their own sex and their support is based in prejudice and not solidarity.

I'm probably really late to the party here, but I'm learning.

A lot of this thread is just conjecture. How do we know what men think? Where are the surveys? Who are these MRA's or incels? Are they from another planet or are they our sons, fathers and brothers? Why always ascribe the worst possible motives? Maybe they just don't care one way or another. Maybe they just want to pee.

How do we know what men think?

They tell us.

Lots of men make jokes about being 'got' by gay men (back to the wall!), loads of casual homophobia, that top is a bit gay, he looks like a bender, about being uncomfortable taking a piss when an effeminate man comes in.

A lot of swearing shows a male fear of homosexuality- being penetrated. If something is bad or not working it's fucked, screwed, buggered.

If you have to do something at work that you don't want to do then it's 'bending over for them' etc etc

NAMALT obviously but I mean. How do we know? They tell us all the time!

Male toilet etiquette is very strict for this reason as well. Glance in the wrong direction could get you in trouble. As the other man might think you were gay.

It's not really an assumption. They're not quiet about it!

@toomanytrees

A lot of this thread is just conjecture. How do we know what men think? Where are the surveys? Who are these MRA's or incels? Are they from another planet or are they our sons, fathers and brothers? Why always ascribe the worst possible motives? Maybe they just don't care one way or another. Maybe they just want to pee.

We know because they tell us :-/

On twitter and other social media, in the comments sections of newspapers, in the pub after a drink or two (pre covid...)

It shouldn't surprise you to hear that men who don't respect women don't feel any need to hide what they think of us.

This OP crystallises my thoughts on TW using female toilets.

Apparently, it’s OK to make the woman who has experienced abuse at the hands of men feel uncomfortable by having a masculine-looking TW in the female toilets because, well, her feelings are just related to her transphobia aren’t they because TWAW? Nothing to do with having been subjected to fear and violence at the hands of men.

It’s not OK to call out the homophobes and actual transphobes in the male toilets who might make the TW’s life difficult or even threatened were the TW to use the male toilet.

Female non-transphobia is far worse, and therefore should be subject to greater challenge, than male actual transphobia.

Makes sense

My nice "not my Nigel" was definitely of that way of thinking (or not thinking )

Sitting in a pub overlooking the carpark, a late middle aged couple arrived, one in 3/4 trousers and loose long top, the other in clingy dress, jewellery and heels. The second one spent quite some time faffing on with the car, then they went inside. I turned to DH and he hadn't a clue. He just answered 'well I didn't fancy either of them'.🤷‍♀️

Female non-transphobia is far worse, and therefore should be subject to greater challenge, than male actual transphobia.

Yes, women are held to a far higher standard. Do you remember that journalist (?) who denounced women for transphobia for stating biological facts, being worried about male violence - and then his old tweets laughing at a trans woman who attempted suicide were revealed. He was forgiven very quickly.

Whoa! Thanks for the observations on male behavior especially in relation to homosexuality. I lead a very sheltered life. But how much of it is talk (male banter, swagger and signalling) and how much translates into actual violence? How much is alcohol fueled and does it decrease age? If gay men have managed in men's bathrooms why can't transwomen?

On a lighter note, where I live it is de rigeur for men to wear brightly coloured hawaiian shirts to summer get togethers.

Totally.
I have heard several men say, "But you can't have men in dresses in the men's toilets - you just can't" - as though it is some inviolate natural law. Never mind whether they are trans - just the idea of a dress is beyond the pale.
The same men who wouldn't dream of dating a transwoman, and are quite vocal about it.

If you point out the reasons why it might not be a problem to women to share their toilets with someone that makes them feel uncomfortable, you are met with blank looks. Spell it out clearly enough, and they might eventually see your point, but still, your fear of rape or abuse doesn't compete with the manly code.

might be a problem not might not be oooops

I’ve been saying this for years, look at the reaction to Harry Styles in his dress 🙄

Let's call a spade a spade here. No gay man would want sexual relations with someone with a fanny.

They just wouldn't.

Are they 'gayphobes' the same way as women who are same sex attracted are 'lesbophobes'

It is fucking ridiculous.

@youkiddingme

Totally. I have heard several men say, "But you can't have men in dresses in the men's toilets - you just can't" - as though it is some inviolate natural law. Never mind whether they are trans - just the idea of a dress is beyond the pale. The same men who wouldn't dream of dating a transwoman, and are quite vocal about it.

If you point out the reasons why it might not be a problem to women to share their toilets with someone that makes them feel uncomfortable, you are met with blank looks. Spell it out clearly enough, and they might eventually see your point, but still, your fear of rape or abuse doesn't compete with the manly code.

Yes. I'm certain it's behind a lot of the gender issues which arise in some men and boys. In the eyes of some, there is only one narrow way to be a boy and then a man, and it involves suppressing most emotions, certainly never talking about your feelings, and never dressing/presenting in a way that casts any doubt on which sex you are. A grown man with an obviously male build and facial features can have long hair, wear a pink shirt and so on, but a little boy can't - because in the former case it's perfectly obvious he's male but in the latter it isn't, and shock horror, he might be taken for a girl.

In the very worst cases, this thinking is so entrenched that when a little boy starts doing things which his parents perceive as effeminate/unmanly, they find it easier to buy into the 'born in the wrong body' nonsense than change their own thinking and let him get on with it.

Same thinking applies to baby names. There are lots of names which used to be mainly used for boys but then started being used for girls. As soon as this happens with any frequency, parents stop picking them for boys. Those names are now tainted.