Any Canadians out there who want a thread?

[MedicineHat]

I'm not sure if I've been spending too much time on here and making myself feel more positive about the situation, but it was recently reinforced to me how dire our situation as women is here in Canada. I know Canada pops up sometimes on here but I wondered if anyone fancies an ongoing Canada thread?

You're completely right, things in Canada are changing fast. I've only been a lurker up 'til now when it comes to GC topics, maybe there's other Canadians hiding out there like I was?

Right now I'm working on my response to the StatsCan consultation. Is anybody else out there responding?

www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/concepts/consult-variables/gender#a4

Re statcan. Yes, I am working on response. I am particularly worried about how according to these recommendations, all analysis except health will be based on gender rather than sex. I believe that sex influences us in a myriad of ways beyond just strictly health issues. To deny this is to deny evolution itself.

I think it could be useful to have a Canada discussion. It's so difficult to find a place to talk about things here in Canada, there is nothing like MN really. And institutions have been so captured.

Not Canadian but re the above post.

You mean they will no longer collect stuff like

Pay gap
Poverty
What sort of people are the perpetrators/ victims of which crimes?
What type of people are victims of trafficking and into what sectors
Who the victims of csa are

Etc etc

??

If it takes off, you could ask Mumsnet for a whole Canada Chat section. (Like there is a multipost activism, book club, theory subcategory as well as chat) They might say no, but don't ask, dont get (not trying to get rid of you, I think it's awesome you are here but one thread is limiting)
Mumsnet is such a unique space, they might want to go international.

I've also been a lurker until now but through my work I see the every day effects of the erosion of sex-based rights and I don't know any one in real life who shares my view so I think i need to de-lurk.

NiceGerbil most if not all of the things on your list are not recorded by sex in my province

Reply to Nice. That's how I read it. The issues you mention are hugely important, but also what about just good information for businesses and policy makers? What about male vs female purchasing decisions, hobbies, sports, children, where to live, food preferences. All these things could be obscured by using gender rather than sex.

I’d love to join you. I’m a British expat living in Canada on the West coast. I’m thoroughly fed up with the erosion of Women’s rights in Canada. There is nowhere to have a reasoned discussion about this here. I had (note past tense) many wonderful, feminist friends and enjoyed our discussions on many challenging topics, but this topic has divided us, and I am now persona non-grata. It’s thoroughly depressing.

One of the things that particularly bothers me is how insidiously the status quo has slid into place....did I miss the debate? Or in fact just anyone telling us that anything had changed. I keep finding out about changes after they've already happened.

I had a woman friend in Canada (I'm in the UK) who is now just an acquaintance. We just fell apart over women's rights / trans rights. Lovely woman, bright, engaged, thoughtful, compassionate. But she simply doesn't see the danger to women and children. And probably thinks I'm hyperbolic and unkind.

Hope the thread takes off. Feeling less alone makes such a massive difference.

Solidarity!

Hello! I’m also on the west coast although currently in U.K. Couldn’t help thinking earlier that what happened in the House of Lords earlier today would never happen in any way/shape or form in the Canadian senate :(

Solidarity from the west coast

You didn't miss the debate, OP. There never was one! My mother says that Canadians want to be the first to jump on any woke trend and she's absolutely right. We want to be seen as the most kind, most tolerant, most accepting, most progressive blah blah blah and this is where it has led us on women's rights.

I don't believe most women here are captured. A dear friend of mine, who has been deeply involved in feminism her whole adult life, woke up to it all at the same time as me. We sort of tentatively gauged where the other one was at over a period of time, and it was a huge relief when we realized we're on the same page. My closest friend where I live also totally gets it. Where I live is deeply 'right on progressive', with many women signed up to the TRA agenda, but I don't think that the average person understands the debate or even realizes there is a debate! And I think a lot are just going along with it because it's the done thing. I don't talk about these issues much with my oldest friends, but a couple of them think I'm a bit alt-right now while another one is on the same page as me.

One of the issues is that the country is too big and geographically spread out to make in-person organization possible. And our press culture simply isn't as robust as that in the UK. On a positive note, the police here are not policing speech (yet) in the same way that is happening in the UK.

With regards to the statsCan consultation, this view from the other side might make for interesting reading. There's a link to click and read the submission.

kevinguyan.com/2021/02/16/submission-to-statistics-canadas-consultation-on-gender-and-sexual-diversity-statistical-standards/

For anyone looking for suggestions for the statsCan consultation this link is good

genderreport.ca/stats-can-public-consultation-on-gender/

Hi teezletangler! I think you are exactly right. In our aim to present ourselves as always kind and tolerant we have trampled women's rights and bypassed due process.

I am on the east coast....v long distance solidarity from here! It is similarly woke here and I think many people are swept along in the tide of not wanting to appear bigoted. I don't believe that they actually understand what is really at stake. And that's just people who consider themselves informed or politically active. I don't think the average person realizes there is any issue at all, because there has been so little discussion. We have been presented with a fait accompli

Thanks, Medicine Hat, for the genderreport link. This will really help my response.

Does anyone have recommendations for the type of language that would be most effective to be taken seriously? Is diplomatic language the best or would "mad as hell" be effective? For instance is "assigned at birth" a lie, a falsehood, inaccurate, ridiculous or a misrepresentation?

And our press culture simply isn't as robust as that in the UK.

I think this is a significant part of the problem. It's not just with this issue either, there increasingly seem certain issues issues where things aren't reported, or they are very selectively reported, as far as traditional or mainstream media goes. I am finding I only see this information from niche, online media sources, or even just from people I know, which is to say I have to go looking in most cases.

I also think that, at least in certain parts of the country there is a kind of passivity involved, and I'd say here on the east coast that is very much the case. People seem to be very trusting in authorities and certain institutions like the CBC. This is areal mixed blessing - people generally are happy to help others, but there is a dark side. Look at how covid has played out. We've done very well indeed in terms of infections. But in NS the legislature hasn't sat in a year and the premier has really not had any real pushback about suspending it, as if it is less important than having pubs or concert venues open.

With so little interest in the operation of basic democratic institutions, it's no surprise that we have walked into all kinds of changes with no public awareness or debate.

East coast passivity is definitely real. Just look at the school snow days. I'm also in NS - we had one last week for rain! We are teaching the younger generation to pull the duvet up over their heads when something looks like it might be difficult. This is a terrible precedent to set.

With Covid, the lack of parliamentary oversight this past year probably has something to do with the insane and reckless public sector spending- we're talking buying ventilators for hospitals that don't have staff who know how to run them and lots more gems like that.

Happy to lurk here - I'm Canadian (West Coast) but have lived in the UK for years. Watching this particular issue develop across the US, UK and Canada has been fascinating and disquieting for me. My first hint that my friends in Toronto just weren't thinking things through came a few years ago, when my university bestie tried to patiently explain to me that it was perfectly fine for a TW to be quoted in an article about lesbian women being more likely to experience orgasm during partnered sex than heterosexual women. This one:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jul/09/do-lesbians-have-better-sex-than-straight-women

She's a very lovely, giving person - I genuinely think that between Rob Ford and Donald Trump, she's gone a bit mad trying to defend her principles against what she's regarding as an endless pushback against tolerance and inclusion. (That fact that's making her sexual politics incredibly regressive just isn't clicking for her.)

I'm thinking one of the most important issues is how is tis stuff going to get out to the general public?

My mum was absolutely shocked when I told her that it is now policy for transwomen offenders to be housed in women's prisons. She initial didn't believe me, when I told her I'd read it in Feminist Current she was doubtful about it as a source because she had never heard of it, it seemed likely to have an agenda, and it was online. And she couldn't see how this would not be reported in the MSM. I dug out the policy references and as a long time nurse who dealt with all kinds of patients she could see what the problems were immediately in terms of how this would play right into all kinds of people with agendas, personality disorders, and so on.

A fellow I know through work, a very progressive, mid-20's gay man who you would think was very up on all the latest fads was shocked when I told him that sexuality was by many seen as relating to gender rather than sex. I don't know that he entirely believed me either, or similar reasons.

There needs to be more robust coverage somewhere, and while the National Post has done a little it's just dismissed by most progressives or people who vote Liberal - though these days it's publishing the few investigative journalism pieces I see. Progressive Canadians largely rely on the CBC and they are not delivering.

@SmokedDuck

I think it could be useful to have a Canada discussion. It's so difficult to find a place to talk about things here in Canada, there is nothing like MN really. And institutions have been so captured.

That's what I was just going to ask the OP about. It seems astonishing to me that there isn't anything for women especially in such a 'progressive' place. ( I am trying to avoid using the w... word.) What about the US - home of the internet? Is there anything there similar to mumsnet for women?

@toomanytrees

Thanks, Medicine Hat, for the genderreport link. This will really help my response.

Does anyone have recommendations for the type of language that would be most effective to be taken seriously? Is diplomatic language the best or would "mad as hell" be effective? For instance is "assigned at birth" a lie, a falsehood, inaccurate, ridiculous or a misrepresentation?

I am currently writing it very diplomatically, but it's difficult to do. I don't know if any one style is better than another.

I did address "assigned at birth" and basically said something like medical staff observe and record important medical information, including sex. They don't "assign" a baby's weight, nor do they "assign" a baby's sex.

The word assign implies subjectiveness which is obviously false.

Abitofalark I think it has something to do with the size of Canada and its provinicial/federal structure. There's a lot tgat differs across the country and that results in incohesiveness and practically speaking it makes it hard to organize.

I also think that Canada is not nearly as 'progressive' as it wants the world to think. You only need to look at our treatment of Aboriginal people in Canada to see this.