What does it mean to be butch?

[BuntingEllacott]

Really interesting video about what it means to be a butch woman. It's very weird for me to see because this is stuff I viewed from a distance as a teenager, with a kind of fascinated and terrified awe. Life went in a very different direction for me, but I really resonate with what is said here about butches being the lesbians who are always visible. There's interesting historical references here, and a use of alternate pronouns as a specific part of lesbian and gay culture that I recall from uni days that had nothing whatsoever to do with not accepting the reality of biological sex. I note that many these women are much older, and seem supremely confident in their own skin, which is definitely something I feel myself now when I see my reflection.

It's something I've wondered as a gender nonconforming but straight woman. Haven't time to watch whole video on lunch break but from the first few minutes they look like people I'd like to get to know.

Yeah, there's something really admirable and attractive to me about them. Just for sense of confidence they have. I mean, I do see that confidence in women who dress and present very differently too, of course, but I can't quite articulate how liberating it is to see women who look like me and are comfortable in that. More than that, they radiate poise and charm.

Thanks for sharing this OP - it’s absolutely fascinating. I’m straight but I wear a lot of men’s clothes because of my height. But I don’t look half as good as these women! I shall watch again and take style notes :)

Supposed it’s what camp is to men

But I’m getting annoyed with giving everything labels

It's not really about giving something a label. Butch women are simply visibly challenging, and there's a whole load of history behind that. Some of it is about sexuality, for sure, but a straight woman who doesn't perform femininity faces many of the same issues.

Fwiw, I have no issues at all with women being as feminine as they please as long as it's their own free choice, and i appreciate the style of a well turned out feminine woman, and indeed the style of any woman who pleases herself in what she wears. But there's no denying that women who are visibly more 'masculine' in style, according to the dictates of our culture, face specific issues.

The tall model is absolutely stunning. I’ve been trying to focus in on why these women look so different to “feminine” women but not having any success. They seem unapologetic and so confident in their look.

There's definitely an unapologetic swagger to them, isn't there? I liked what the one woman said about being craggy and taking up that space that older men have no problem doing.

I'm a femme lesbian who only dates butch women. This video is lovely to watch. I do love their confidence.

@AnnListersBlister

I'm a femme lesbian who only dates butch women. This video is lovely to watch. I do love their confidence.

❤ I'm glad I shared it. It was an encouraging watch.

I thought, oh, this is what Alison Bechdel would like, and then there she was! The way butch women have struck me in the past is that they don't make any concessions to what's considered "feminine". Somehow that side of life for most women has just passed them by. It's not just in the way they dress and their haircuts, but it's the way they move; one of the women mentioned the aspect of occupying space, doing it without apologising, the way we think men do. And yet, they have bodies like any woman, so it's clearly something that their psychology leads them to do (and other women's psychology leads them in another direction--not calling anyone wrong here).

I believe there a topic here a while ago on what "natural" behaviour is, and whether women need to learn to act the way society expects women to be. You could imagine a different world, where maybe those cues didn't exist, and everyone would act pretty much the same way. Are the butch women "acting like men" or are they just showing what it's like when women reject the conventional idea of how women ought to be?

It's interesting, yes, the movement thing is significant. I notice that I no longer sit small and tidy, and I walk, I do take up more space. I feel different, it's hard to describe. I performed femininity for many years and now I've shaken that conditioning off, it feels like I hold myself differently.

I’ve felt a failure as a women because I have to wear men’s clothes. This video has turned that on its head. Thank you so much for posting it.

That's a great video. Thanks for posting. Confidence is an appealing trait in anyone. It's great to see women who are comfortable and confident in simply being themselves and don't feel the need to conform to societal notions of appearance or femininity.

A dapper looking butch is always attractive!

I love the confidence and self-assuredness. And I love a three piece suit myself despite having worn sweatpants and t-shirts for what feels like forever. When I've worn men's jeans in the past it's been brilliant because of the extra leg length and better fit.

It struck me though, how many times the word masculinity was used in the video, and the phrase 'men's clothes'. Hard and repetitive emphasis on the male sex, the garments with INTENT for the male sex, and the stereotypes associated with the male sex. And part of me wonders whether there's still a layer of WHY choices are made and seen as desirable that is yet unexplored.

I get the same thoughts when we talk about men who like dresses. I'm left wondering what exactly makes the dress desirable to that man. Is it the fabric, the drape, the colours, the comfort, the aesthetic of a garment that is designed and fits well to the body of the wearer? Or is it mostly the association of that garment with a particular sex class that makes it appealing? If that sex class suddenly all rejected that garment en masse, does the appeal die too? Does it matter to the man that his body lacks the dimensions and shape and parts for that cut to fit him? If it's just the dress that appeals, would a better fitting dress cut for a straight waist, no hips, flat chest and broad shoulders be equally appealing to him?

Ultimately everyone should be free to wear what they want. And behave how we like. Clothes should fit, be comfortable, practical, meet our desired aesthetic, represent our personalities. But it doesn't hurt to question one's own motives about why we make the choices we do. A shirt is a shirt. A jacket is a jacket. Do I like it because it looks phenomenal on me and fits my body like a dream, or does its value to me rise because it's an aesthetic that I associate with 'masculinity' or men?

I'm just musing out loud. The women in the video were great. It just struck me how many times I heard 'masculinity' and 'men's clothes' and wondered whether we'll ever be at the point where the whole aesthetic, hair, clothes, style, could be described without reference to men at all.

I recently bought a pair of men's jeans - so comfortable and practical, with the pockets and all. Stretchy, just enough, and a higher waist. All good. I paired them with a t-shirt and a man's shirt over the top, and converse.

I didn't feel manly. I chose those clothes because I felt comfortable, presentable and they are practical too.

I'm a "late bloomer" lesbian - came out a few years ago after being married to a man and having children. Tried to be feminine for much of my life, but the makeup and hair and dresses never were me.

I nodded along with the woman in the video who said her outside matched her inside, when she started dressing the way she did.

I don't know much about being "butch" but I suppose I lean that way. Dressing up no longer means dresses. I wear a mixture of clothes cut for a man's shape and for a woman's. I have long hair.

But I intend to take up space in the world and I'm comfortable with being noticed because of it.

You might be interested in this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4093652-When-people-say-butch-lesbians-look-like-men-I-get-offended-Thoughts

Thank you for sharing this. The unapologetic/confidence vibe is fantastic.

A shirt is a shirt. A jacket is a jacket. I’m not sure that’s true though. In my experience clothes for men are of better quality and from more heavy-duty fabrics. They are clothes for bodies that do stuff; clothes for women are for adornment.

On the other hand many of the women in the clip are wearing plain white t-shirts which are surely the most gender-neutral garment possible!

For me, it's pockets. I feel confident and strong and me if I can lean against a wall, or walk along with my hands in my pockets. A good pair of trousers and an open suit jacket make that work. I think that's because as a stance, it's casual, and confident because I'm not holding my hands out defensively, they're in my pockets because I'm owning the space.

I use the phrase masculine simply as a cultural shorthand. Those clothes aren't male, but that styling is predominantly worn by men in our culture. I don't wear them to look like a man (although I get sir or mate quite a lot anyway) but i suspect i wear them for the same reason a man does - because they are comfortable and speak of confidence and a self contained sense of self. If I call them masculine clothes, it's because typing out masculine-coded-clothes-in-our-culture is far too cumbersome to keep typing out, but that's what I mean.

Great video - I'm a older femme married to an older butch. Just watched this video together. My wife often makes the argument made in the video that butches are a dying breed - such a shame as nothing sexier than the quiet swagger and confidence (but for me also the sensitivity) of a butch woman.

The pronouns thing is interesting. I dated a few butch lesbians going back years, but never heard "he" used in the same way gay men say "she", though I also didn't know the term "stud" - maybe that is quite culture specific.

I love their style.

Men's clothes are often better made. Yeah deep pockets. Also the coats and jackets sometimes have inner pockets so you don't need to carry a bag all the time.

As a historically heterosexual women after watching that I’m now considering my options. Wow.

@Barracker

I love the confidence and self-assuredness. And I love a three piece suit myself despite having worn sweatpants and t-shirts for what feels like forever. When I've worn men's jeans in the past it's been brilliant because of the extra leg length and better fit.

It struck me though, how many times the word masculinity was used in the video, and the phrase 'men's clothes'. Hard and repetitive emphasis on the male sex, the garments with INTENT for the male sex, and the stereotypes associated with the male sex. And part of me wonders whether there's still a layer of WHY choices are made and seen as desirable that is yet unexplored.

I get the same thoughts when we talk about men who like dresses. I'm left wondering what exactly makes the dress desirable to that man. Is it the fabric, the drape, the colours, the comfort, the aesthetic of a garment that is designed and fits well to the body of the wearer? Or is it mostly the association of that garment with a particular sex class that makes it appealing? If that sex class suddenly all rejected that garment en masse, does the appeal die too? Does it matter to the man that his body lacks the dimensions and shape and parts for that cut to fit him? If it's just the dress that appeals, would a better fitting dress cut for a straight waist, no hips, flat chest and broad shoulders be equally appealing to him?

Ultimately everyone should be free to wear what they want. And behave how we like. Clothes should fit, be comfortable, practical, meet our desired aesthetic, represent our personalities. But it doesn't hurt to question one's own motives about why we make the choices we do. A shirt is a shirt. A jacket is a jacket. Do I like it because it looks phenomenal on me and fits my body like a dream, or does its value to me rise because it's an aesthetic that I associate with 'masculinity' or men?

I'm just musing out loud. The women in the video were great. It just struck me how many times I heard 'masculinity' and 'men's clothes' and wondered whether we'll ever be at the point where the whole aesthetic, hair, clothes, style, could be described without reference to men at all.

That struck me too. It struck me that behind this style of dressing there is a vested need for clothes and style to be gendered. It's not just comfort and ease there's a lot of effort put into that look.

They are as far from my preferred style of upper middle class 50s lady a la Julianne Moore in Far From Heaven as they could possibly . Their look is striking because of its transgressive nature- most women don't actively choose such masculine styles. Most women in everyday life don't choose as formally tailored feminine clothes as I do.

I like gendered clothes- unisex is a horrible idea.I don't want men in dresses to be a norm but I think they like gendered clothes too because without the concept of masculine and feminine the impact of their appearance disappears.

I really admire the way they dress. Most people at my school are really into performing femininity, and it's nice to see role models for being different from that.