What does it mean to be butch?

[BuntingEllacott]

Really interesting video about what it means to be a butch woman. It's very weird for me to see because this is stuff I viewed from a distance as a teenager, with a kind of fascinated and terrified awe. Life went in a very different direction for me, but I really resonate with what is said here about butches being the lesbians who are always visible. There's interesting historical references here, and a use of alternate pronouns as a specific part of lesbian and gay culture that I recall from uni days that had nothing whatsoever to do with not accepting the reality of biological sex. I note that many these women are much older, and seem supremely confident in their own skin, which is definitely something I feel myself now when I see my reflection.

Thanks for posting.

This came up for me afterwards. Casey Ledger talking about her hair. I thought it was another interesting insight into identity, appearance, compliance, performing femininity.

I saw that video too, 3times - the photos of Casey when she had a shaved head as a swimmer are really something. I’m still pondering the impact of that presentation - it really must speak to confidence, there is no-where to hide and nothing to hide behind! Just a woman and her body - no artifice, no styling, just her.

A shaved head can be very striking but it's still styled. There's thought behind it. Unstyled hair is mine after nearly a year in lockdown.

@Floisme

A shaved head can be very striking but it's still styled. There's thought behind it. Unstyled hair is mine after nearly a year in lockdown.

Agreed- the idea that a shaved head has no artifice or styling really doesn't hold water.

Absent alopecia or the side effects of chemotherapy it's a very deliberate statement which is going to need very regular "styling" to maintain.

I dont consider myself either butch or femme but am greatly adverse to wearing the costume of the dominant sex ie men.

Have never understood why feminist lesbians dont see the contradiction.

And in a sense reinforces gender stereo types.

I think it might be worth thinking about that what seems like appropriating the male style what signal that sends to lesbians and other women who react negatively to the inherent message of those clothes.

I also feel this about short hair on both men and women. For me its says nazi or skin head. Very uncomfortable.

They're not male clothes though, they're female clothes unless you think the clothes have male or female properties rather than the bodies they are in. Surely it's subverting gender stereotypes since women aren't "supposed" to wear them. Certainly I'd say butch lesbians get much more abuse and prejudice than women who dress in more traditionally feminine styles. It's a myth that they want to be like men or are imitating men, they just want to be like themselves, I never had any sense that butch lesbians were anything other than women who were deeply invested in other women, basically as far from being male-identified as it's possible to be.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say they're not male clothes though, they're female clothes- given the many references to masculinity and the participants referred to men's clothes.

So far as whether the clothes have male or female properties rather than the bodies they are in, it comes down to the signals being sent out- these are masculine clothes and styling.

Barracker made these points, which I think are pertinent.

Or is it mostly the association of that garment with a particular sex class that makes it appealing? If that sex class suddenly all rejected that garment en masse, does the appeal die too?

A shirt is a shirt. A jacket is a jacket. Do I like it because it looks phenomenal on me and fits my body like a dream, or does its value to me rise because it's an aesthetic that I associate with 'masculinity' or men?

It's not a style I would adopt but I find butch/ stud dressing interesting because it's tribal dressing and tribal dressing is always interesting. The effort put in is impressive. I have no idea if butch lesbians are "deeply invested in other women" beyond their immediate partners - or that there should be any expectation that they are.

I dont consider myself either butch or femme but am greatly adverse to wearing the costume of the dominant sex ie men

Have never understood why feminist lesbians dont see the contradiction

And in a sense reinforces gender stereo types

This seems a bit of an extreme reaction but I do query the assumption by most posters that butch lesbians are breaking gender stereotypes. The look only works because there are gender stereotypes about clothes.

It's certainly interesting to unpack, there's a lot of history and culture behind dressing and crossdressing of all kinds.

Reasons for choosing clothes/styles:
Effort required to adopt style
Practicality
Comfort
Fit to one's particular body shape
Fashion
Personal style
Availability in men's/women's departments in relation to any of above
Wanting to conform
Wanting to stand out
Wanting to be attractive to partner or potential partner
Wanting to be admired by your social group
Wanting to signal something - group allegiance, sexuality, desire to be referred to as if opposite sex, maybe how you want others to perceive and treat you generally

There is also "feeling no urge to perform conventional femininity".

I'm trying not to say "Women looking like men" or "Wearing male clothing". If a woman doesn't go along with our society's expectations, then how can she act so as to remain a woman without seeming to imitate men?

There was a scene in Alison Bechdel's book "Fun Home" which stuck in my mind. Even as a child she wasn't comfortable having long hair or wearing dresses, and her parents usually didn't force her. But one day as a treat, her father took her on a trip to the city, and they had lunch in a small restaurant. While they were eating, a delivery truck came by with supplies, and the manager signed a receiptall totally routinebut the trolley that carried the supplies was handled by a woman, a big strong woman in overalls, obviously totally familiar to the manager. And Alison's father saw this, and said to her, "So, is that the way you want to be?" She didn't dare to say "Yes", but she showed the incident as a glimpse of the way she actually did want to be, a woman not constrained by anything that women are "supposed to do". At least, that's what I thought Bechdel meant by it! I'd ask her about that if I ever met her (which is not likely, but I'm a fan).

Feeling no urge to choose x doesn't make you choose y unless there is an urge to y I guess. So if wanting to conform to social conventions (for sex, locality, religion maybe?) isn't a factor for you, you'd be using other methods to choose? I guess we all follow social conventions to some extent, not many of us going round in togas. Though that would also come under convenient availability!

My butch wife has wanted to wear clothes traditionally worn by men since she was three years old and was growing up in an Australian backwater in the 60s.
She says that for her it was about practicality - at three years old she wept when being made to wear dresses. The only dress she agreed to wear had a print of blocks with letters and numbers on around the hem. That seemed useful she says.
At six years old and a bridesmaid to her elder sister she wept when she was told she couldn't wear a tie. Her sister let her.
At ten years old she wanted a pair of military pants which had pockets and straps like her other elder sister's boyfriend, he gave her his pair and her mum who was a seamstress altered them to fit. When they needed to be washed she would sit on the laundry step in her underwear waiting for them to dry so she could put them on again.
She doesn't know if her desire for clothes traditionally worn by men was due to gender stereotyping but it's interesting that it began so early on.

When I've worn men's jeans in the past it's been brilliant because of the extra leg length and better fit.

In what way better fit? Female clothes (like trousers I’m not talking about unnecessary things like corsets) are made to fit the female body - that body being a physiologically different shape to the male body. In terms of length obvs there’s longer length female jeans?

I also feel this about short hair on both men and women. For me its says nazi or skin head. Very uncomfortable.

For me my Grade 1 haircut says comfortable, convenient & no need for a hairbrush.

@Anovaneway

When I've worn men's jeans in the past it's been brilliant because of the extra leg length and better fit.

In what way better fit? Female clothes (like trousers I’m not talking about unnecessary things like corsets) are made to fit the female body - that body being a physiologically different shape to the male body. In terms of length obvs there’s longer length female jeans?

I haven't needed to wear men's jeans for years because I usually can track down a longer leg length these days, but there was a point when it was just easier to get a 34" Levi's 501 inside leg in a men's cut, and a strong belt did the trick.

I feel like the cut of women's jeans has gone through a bonkers phase. Despite my having a fairly hourglass female waist/hip ratio, every pair I tried would cling horribly at the thigh and calf but then gape hugely at the waist. The opposite of what you'd expect for a women's cut.

I'm all set for jeans right now, but I've wondered recently whether I should try another pair of 501s to see if they still fit me like I remember.

@Anovaneway

When I've worn men's jeans in the past it's been brilliant because of the extra leg length and better fit.

In what way better fit? Female clothes (like trousers I’m not talking about unnecessary things like corsets) are made to fit the female body - that body being a physiologically different shape to the male body. In terms of length obvs there’s longer length female jeans?

A lot of posters on here seem to wear their male partners' clothes because they are apparently a better fit /more comfortable.

Many years ago when husband and I were both chest 34 I borrowed a white shirt from him which I wanted to wear with a tie (also borrowed from him)and a tailored black (skirt) suit. Apart from round the chest it didn't fit anywhere. The collar was too wide , sleeves were too long it gaped at the waist and was tight over my hips. The tie was too long as well and I ended up buying female equivalents from Thomas Pink. I wasn't even a curvaceous body shape then but his shirt wasn't made for my shape.

Apart from round the chest it didn't fit anywhere

Fit does not seem to be a problem for any of the women in the video.

A lot of posters on here seem to wear their male partners' clothes because they are apparently a better fit /more comfortable

On this thread? There isn’t a single poster who has said that, except you.

Interesting that on a thread about Butch, a statement is made about a ‘woman’s body’.

I’m a woman. I have a small waist, narrow hips and no chest. ‘Boys’ clothes fit much better as they don’t gape at the hips.

Thanks for posting the video what a great watch!

Yes thanks for posting it Bunting - really interesting. This isn't my world but I love all kinds of clothes and I think a well tailored men's suit is a thing of beauty. Cary Grant is one of my style crushes and I whooped when one of the women (sorry I can't remember her name) mentioned him.

I was struck by how much thought and effort some of them must put into their appearance. Those haircuts didn't style themselves, learning to fold a tie correctly takes practice; the suits were beautiful and didn't look cheap and they also fitted perfectly e.g. on the shoulders, so, although they were described as 'men's clothes' I imagine they'd been specially made or altered for a female body.

No quibble from me at all - I totally get going to that kind of trouble to achieve the look you want, but I do question any idea - and I know not everyone's saying it - that this is all about dressing for ease or comfort or practicality. There's surely something else going on too.

@Happinessisawarmcervix

Apart from round the chest it didn't fit anywhere

Fit does not seem to be a problem for any of the women in the video.

None of them seem to have breasts. I actually wondered if they were wearing binders or similar.

@Happinessisawarmcervix

A lot of posters on here seem to wear their male partners' clothes because they are apparently a better fit /more comfortable

On this thread? There isn’t a single poster who has said that, except you.

On this forum- it is mentioned regularly in threads about clothes

@Floisme

Yes thanks for posting it Bunting - really interesting. This isn't my world but I love all kinds of clothes and I think a well tailored men's suit is a thing of beauty. Cary Grant is one of my style crushes and I whooped when one of the women (sorry I can't remember her name) mentioned him.

I was struck by how much thought and effort some of them must put into their appearance. Those haircuts didn't style themselves, learning to fold a tie correctly takes practice; the suits were beautiful and didn't look cheap and they also fitted perfectly e.g. on the shoulders, so, although they were described as 'men's clothes' I imagine they'd been specially made or altered for a female body.

No quibble from me at all - I totally get going to that kind of trouble to achieve the look you want, but I do question any idea - and I know not everyone's saying it - that this is all about dressing for ease or comfort or practicality. There's surely something else going on too.

Of course there is more going into it than comfort and ease. I too totally get going to

Posted too soon - yes I have no quibble with the time and effort put into achieving that look but apart from you and Barracker and stumbledin (who had a very strong reaction) no one's interested in considering what else is going on.

Thank you for posting this link - butch lesbian here.
I had to get to my 40s to feel comfortable with my look/ identity.

That video made me very emotional when I came across it last year and it's lovely to hear the positive comments here.

Lots of interesting thoughts above around gender presentation , 'male' clothes etc which I want to read now