How to identify the similar-minded women at work?

[SybillTrelawney]

I'm feeling suffocated by the dominance of gender ideology at work, and I want to find any female colleagues who feel similarly (assuming there are some), partly to feel less alone, and partly so that I can speak up about my concerns knowing that it's not just me. I've talked to some male colleagues who think it's ridiculous, but they tend to just stay out of it because it's not worth the hassle. Unfortunately the people who actually get involved in "employee activism" and anything relating to diversity initiatives seem to be almost exclusively very woke and very TWAW, and so theirs are the only voices that get heard, and they make it a very uncomfortable environment for anyone who doesn't subscribe to the orthodoxy.

My company is quite large (1000-ish?), so I'd like to believe there are others; though it's quite a male-dominated workplace, and the vast majority of women there are under the age of 35 (as am I), so that makes me less hopeful. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to find them?

Suffragette pin?

So, to summarise, the men should be tolerant of trans people, so you don’t have to?

No. I am happy to welcome transmen and 'non binary' females into female spaces.

Males should be tolerant of transwomen in their spaces.

It's not about trans people, its about women having women-only spaces. Or females having single sex provision, if you want to couch it in the legal terms of the Equality Act.

@ArabellaScott

So, to summarise, the men should be tolerant of trans people, so you don’t have to?

No. I am happy to welcome transmen and 'non binary' females into female spaces.

Males should be tolerant of transwomen in their spaces.

It's not about trans people, its about women having women-only spaces. Or females having single sex provision, if you want to couch it in the legal terms of the Equality Act.

100%. I'm absolutely supportive of all female bodied women using women's facilities, regardless of how they identify.

What a great question, love the secret signal idea. I am an equalities rep and I tried discussing it with a couple of colleagues when I was just becoming aware of the issues and quite innocently wanted to debate it a bit as I didn’t really know what I thought. Male colleague was interested and open to discussion but a female went purple, started frothing and telling me TWAW very loudly and I started to realise what was going on. Female dominated charity an I feel I am going to be on the wrong side of history by not speaking up but I don’t know how. I have a new manager who is super cool and I can’t imagine she’d shoot me down even if she was not GC, so hoping to build the relationship and find a way to bring it up. Fucked up how scary that is though

So, to summarise, the men should be tolerant of trans people, so you don't have to?

What a bizarre reaction. The poster described how she'd considered the needs of several employees in terms of gender reassignment and religion. Your response is to complain it's been left to the men to deal with. Interesting to see you have zero consideration for the Muslim and Hindu women in this situation.

Thanks for all the responses and suggestions — knowing there are people who care on here makes me feel a little better.

I quite like the book/ribbon/scarf suggestions, though everything is virtual at the moment, and I don't really have many meetings with women. All of the discussion about these things occurs on internal messaging channels dedicated to diversity & inclusion (where any display of critical thinking is immediately shot down). Unfortunately most of the men who think it's all BS don't join or engage with those channels, so they're overrun by the woke who just reinforce each others' views.

@newyearnewname123 your assumption was correct — it is a tech company (and a scientific one at that). I've heard that it was far less thought-policed, and far more tolerant of reasoned discussion in the earlier days, but it seems that as it has grown and the distribution of roles has changed (far more ops roles than there used to be, comprising mostly woke women in their 20s/early 30s), no one really discusses things critically anymore, and so the opinions of the SJWs, i.e. "TWAW" and "be kind to everyone (but only if they're trans or non-binary)", dominate everything.

@ArabellaScott Tragically we have both a women's group, and a separate "feminist" group, yet the people who get involved are all young, and all TWAW. The women's group refuses to even use the word "women" on its own. It has to be "women and non-binary people". This is also the case on all company-wide comms about any women-related events. As @bourbonne predicted, they are magnets for the genderists. I suspect that the women who actually know what a woman is are mostly too busy to get involved, since their time is spent dealing with all the extra unpaid work and mental load that comes with being a woman.

I popped my head over the parapet

I am now facing a disciplinary at work for being transphobic 🙄 so that's another voice silenced 🤐😶

@Outbutnotoutout What exactly did you say/do?

I feel I am going to be on the wrong side of history

In most instances history doesn't have a 'wrong side'. These issues aren't always simple and reducible to 'right' and 'wrong'. There are complex wider issues to consider, shades of opinion and the subjects are evolving as we watch.

Outbutnotout, brave woman, well done. I'm so sorry you're facing a disciplinary. Is there anything one could do to help? Acas? Mediation? Press?

OP, that's a real shame, but I suppose one thing would be to join the group/s and maybe ask questions, raise points, try and keep the focus on women and women's rights?

The women's group refuses to even use the word "women" on its own.

Yes, this is when it's very clear that feminism has been co-opted and taken apart to mean 'peoplism', or 'nothing at all'.

@SybillTrelawney I would never join an IRL women's group or feminist group for that reason. If I saw one advertised, I'd assume it was an invitation to either be lectured on wokeness by a young zealot, or sit around doing a lot of fluffy handwringing that goes nowhere. This forum is actually a revelation and an inspiration to me. Also, it conveniently fits in around the rest of my life, as you say!

@Outbutnotoutout

That's awful.

There's a fairly popular rainbowy group at my work, handing out lanyards and doing bake sales etc.

Been tempted to take my AHF bag.

I know not everyone is into the whole fundraising for charity among work colleagues thing, but maybe you could do it for a charity which is explicitly for women's or girls' issues (or even JK Rowling's charity if you want to be a bit bolder)? It might provide a relatively low-risk way of like-minded people finding you. And even if some wokester stasi wannabe suspects you, what are they going to say - that you shouldn't be raising money for orphans or child brides?

I am too scared to say, just a few GC comments which were reported.

I'm so sorry @Outbutnotoutout . That's awful. I hope it's not upheld.

Outbutnotoutout
Agreed that you shouldn't comment on the open board but have you got support from anywhere? If not, there are a number of women's organisations who should be able to advise / put you in touch with someone who could give you legal advice?
If it's education try safe schools alliance: safeschoolsallianceuk.net/
Womens Place UK - women trade unionists: womansplaceuk.org/
Transgender Trend: www.transgendertrend.com/
Fair Play for Women: fairplayforwomen.com/

You don't have to be alone with this.

Outbutnotoutout:

If you feel you are being targeted because of your sex, you may want to check out laws on discrimination. Specifically harassment or victimisation.

ACAS have this to say in their info on sex discrimination:

'Difference between terms ‘sex’ and ‘gender’
‘Sex' is the most commonly used and accepted term to describe whether someone is male or female. In particular, the Equality Act 2010 uses it when referring to discrimination between men and women. ‘Gender’ has purposely not been used in this guide to avoid confusion concerning another protected characteristic, gender reassignment.
Sex and gender also have different meanings regarding transgender identity, with sex referring to biological differences, and gender referring to aspects such as behaviours, image and expectations viewed as masculine or feminine.'

archive.acas.org.uk/media/4563/Sex-discrimination-key-points-for-the-workplace/pdf/Sex_discrim_key_points_workplace_Nov.pdf

Surprisngly nice and clear. Anyway, might be something of use in there. Also worth looking at the second link below, perhaps.

www.acas.org.uk/discrimination-and-the-law/direct-and-indirect-discrimination

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/contact-us/equality-advisory-and-support-service

'When bullying is harassment

By law, it's harassment when bullying or unwanted behaviour is about any of the following (known as 'protected characteristics'):

age
disability
gender reassignment
pregnancy and maternity
race
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation'

Also from ACAS

www.acas.org.uk/if-youre-treated-unfairly-at-work/being-bullied

@Outbutnotoutout I agree, that's awful. Have they explained to you what exactly it is about what you said that is "transphobic"?

If they're going to use that word to mean "anyone who wants to have a reasoned discussion", then it stops being a ground of complaint. They’re giving the word "transphobic" a meaning that actually means there’s nothing wrong with being transphobic. Unfortunately all this will do is make it harder to spot any actual mistreatment, should it occur.

I don't want to derail your thread, I just needed to let it out quietly

Out yourself as a Mumsnet regular. Just that. Chat to each woman about how helpful AIBU is, or something. Very anodyne to start with.

I bet that within minutes both of you will be eyeing each other with a big "FWR??" speech balloon over your heads, and two minutes after that you'll be swapping poster names.

@Outbutnotoutout I don't consider it derailing — it's important to be able to talk about this, and I'm glad others have suggestions that might be of some help. It's total BS that you're having to deal with this, and I know the feeling of having nowhere else to turn. I started this thread because I was feeling frustrated and isolated myself, so please feel free to let it all out!

@TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld Do you think that's still likely to apply given how young most of the women are (i.e. mostly in their 20s, no kids etc.)?

Was in a big zoom meeting recently where a woman made an anti gender critical comment in the chat as if it would be supported by everyone, as if it was a given. I immediately commented in chat to the effect that I was sure not everyone agreed with that. I then scrutinised the tiny zoom tiles for any flicker of recognition/agreement. How sad. How have we come to this. How has all the fing hard work our brave committed forbears done come to this. I’m about to leave the Labour Party and a Union I belong to over all of this. Really depressing.

Wear A This witch doesnt Burn Tshirt 😀 . I work in a place where you would expect wokestars but the fact is most people arent, especially those with children. I think starting conversations around non female people competing in female sports is a good starting point to guage which side of the land people might lie