Please help me draft a response to my company's new stance on toilets

[Flamingo49]

The company I work for has just produced a "Commitment to Trans Equality" document, 99% of which I wholeheartedly agree with. We then come to the sticky issue of toilets, where the doc says "It is up to you to decide which gender toilet you wish to use" and then "The following are examples of unacceptable behaviour: objecting when a trans employee uses the toilet facilities of their affirmed gender".

I feel so annoyed and frustrated by this. Is it really "unacceptable behaviour" to open up a debate about why single sex spaces are so important for women? I feel like this has been written without any acknowledgement or appreciation of the women who have their own adverse life experiences and might find it incredibly threatening to find someone who looks and sounds like a man (regardless of how they identify), in what was a safe single sex space. I say this in the context of women historically being the ones to have to move aside and accommodate the feelings of others, to dismiss their own feelings of discomfort in order to placate others. I really struggle to put my feelings into words though. Can I have some help with how to respond? I work in a very forward thinking, socially inclusive environment and I don't think any challenge will go down well.

I have emailed HR to ask for a copy of the impact assessment document. I will update with their response if that is OK with the OP, and potentially useful to others.

As OP have said, they need to operate within legal boundaries.

I'll be doing the same tofu.

I've had enough.

Thanks Purple, or do you prefer Hoodie?! I must admit I'm feeling a bit shaky atm, but I worded my request very politely, and am hoping there won't be any backlash.

I know it's nonsensical to feel nervous about this but I do.

Are they usual men's/ women's with a big room with cubicles and shared sinks?

And they are just going to change the labels? Or not even change the labels?

That's not legal as per previous posts.

Also in all my workplaces the men have used the accessible toilets for shitting so it's an even worse idea to direct the women there (not envy)

Also what does affirmed gender mean

Also in all my workplaces the men have used the accessible toilets for shitting so it's an even worse idea to direct the women there

Gosh.

It's almost like even men feel vulnerable when they have to undress and be that exposed, even amongst other men, and want a more private, safer space isn't it?

Purple is fine tofu.

If you're nervous; keep coming back here. Everyone here will support you. Especially in regards to pointing out law.

Even just the information pointed out on this thread is amazing. Huge thanks everyone.

It does seem to be that the UK courts are applying/upholding law in several different areas.

Keep digging everyone

The definitions in the policy are a bit of a mixed bag, but it refers to 'acquired gender or true gender'. At least no 'affirmed' but loads of other things, including saying 'Trans is a social and legal description of individuals etc...'. I don't think there is such a legal description or definition is there?

My workplace is scattered over various buildings but in my main building there are 3 toilets separated by chipboard style walls, with a foot gap at the bottom and maybe 6 foot tall max. 3 sinks beside them and 2 hand driers. It's a very small place and there are sometimes queues.

I can't comment on the men's toilets of course!!

PS thanks Purple, it means a huge amount to me to be here. I'm so very grateful to have found FWR. Thanks everyone.

The Equality Act also covers Religion, Sex, Pregnancy and maternity, and Sexual Orientation remember.

It is NOT just there to protect niche MRA demands.

Just to point out that many workplaces have showers and changing rooms/lockers rooms where sex segregation is also applied. Not just toilets.

Yes, I know and you're spot on. Mind you, this is an organisation where I had to stand up in E&D training a couple of years ago and point out that 'gender' wasn't a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. Again this was training by HR! It feels like they really don't understand the law.

I know it's silly but with work I keep thinking about getting changed for the Xmas do in the toilets. Loads of women getting undressed doing makeup borrowing hairdryers etc.

I'm sure there's more than one man who wouldn't mind an invite :/

Same goes for the gents where they all get changed into their penguin suits. I can't imagine they all wait for cubicles or we wouldn't see them till midnight!

Work loos are sometimes changing rooms in reality.

I would suspect its more that they have been carefully trained in SW's preferred version of the law. This is in essence a political belief that emotions create reality, and facts are something that can be selectively chosen and suppressed depending on your emotional choices. Law included.

It seems to be only when it reaches a court room that the wheels come off. Once there are a few successful employment discrimination cases for women and insurers get leery we'll move to a better position of third ways that meet all needs, instead of just trying to commandeer women's resources and convince them they just have to put up, shut up, or stop expecting access to public spaces. But still pay tax and celebrate their employers 'equality' and 'diversity' brilliance.

I think your op is perfectly eloquent actually.

Is affirmed gender supposed to give some kind of feeling of security about self ID?

Oh well if it's affirmed...

Has the company defined what affirmed gender means?

I think you're right, it's the SW version of the law that I think they have used. Not, like, the actual law. I think back to when I was actually working in the office, and to all the different things that happened in the women's toilets, and it certainly wasn't just having a pee in peace. Like Michelle says, it's not just a single function space. I certainly don't understand what they think cross dressers will do re the single spaces referred to in the policy. There seems to be a big gap between the ideals in the policy and how it would actually work in practice.

What they need to do is provide additional toilets. So there should be men, women, disabled, non gender.

I really want to know what 'affirmed' means- OP have the company defined this?

Google tells me

'Gender affirmation' refers to an interpersonal, interactive process whereby a person receives social recognition and support for their gender identity and expression'

So people with affirmed gender can go in the facilities of their gender, but the affirmation itself involves doing things like using the facilities of their gender... Isn't that somewhat circular?

I think public/third sector organisations are especially bad as the staff rotate around the sector and when one place implements it then they all start copying it as "best practice" without actually doing any consideration or proper assessment. One implements stonewall law (saying that gender identity is a PC and to not allow self ID is discriminatory) and they all start to.

I really would encourage you to challenge it, if you can without feeling it puts you 'at risk'. I have been discussing with a friend who has challenged such a policy at their organisation. They have pushed back using the arguments listed above (H&S law, equality act definitions, guidance, and examples) and HR is now reconsidering the policy, seriously. No-one else said anything initially but when my friend raised it with some colleagues they actually agreed. But no-one else had thought to/was too afraid to challenge it.

I know unions are often thought to be 'captured' but if you can find a supportive rep that you trust they may be able to put forward these arguments and support you.

This gender expression/trans employee guidelines thing seems to be still spreading then.

It was introduced with much fanfare in my workplace last year, including wording similar to this, from the GMB Trans Equality Toolkit: (found while rummaging to see just how bad the Union was - bugger all chance of support from there it seems)

"Toilet and changing facilities should be accessed according to the new gender role,
immediately upon full-time transition of the gender role, unless the individual chooses otherwise. The trans* person must not be required to use the toilets for
disabled workers, unless the individual is disabled.
Clearly, at this particular point, it will be necessary to explain the situation to work
colleagues as well. Any other employees who do not wish to share toilet facilities
with a trans person will, themselves, have to use alternative facilities."

Thanks a fucking bunch then!

The glossary is a peach btw, hands up if you can define "genderfuck"?

www.gmbfifepublicservices.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/GMB-Transgender-Equality-Toolkit-Version-81-2.pdf

The similar wording makes it look like it's coming to all these organisations and businesses from the same sources. :(

You don't get on the "umpteen best inclusive employers" list if you don't go the extra mile...

CherryTree I do feel our local reps would think this was batshit tbh, but clearly the official line is the above. :(

I'm actually going to try and get it into the conversation with one of the reps when I can.

I hope you are successful OP and others have provided all the information you need.

Why not single sex, mixed gender facilities rather than mixed sex single gender facilities? Single sex, mixed gender means people can look like whatever they want but still protects women under the law. No one should be questioned with regards to their gender.