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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel

999 replies

gardenbird48 · 15/02/2021 18:28

I saw 50:50 women tweet to Sue Pascoe Chair of the Conservative Women’s Organisation some time ago on their #askhertostand, but then I couldn’t find the tweet and thought maybe they’d realised their mistake (can you guess?) and deleted it.

However, how wrong I was! There are now two people that have extremely limited ‘lived experience’ as a female (Sue was a married father and successful businessman and Master to Foxhounds until a few years ago). The other person has said hi on here recently.

I don’t mean to be rude but surely the whole point of encouraging women to stand for Parliament is to help overcome the barriers women face in entering politics. Any barriers that trans people face are rather different. It is also interesting that on a panel of three for their ‘Encouraging LGBT+ Women to Stand’ campaign, there us only one person with actual lived experience of being a woman (I am hoping that Mandu Reid of the WEP was born female at least...??)

50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel
OP posts:
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SunsetBeetch · 16/02/2021 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post.

Winesalot · 16/02/2021 11:40

I agree Barraker.

Although, when I agree to proportional representation I should clarify that it should mean exactly that. If women are 51% of the population, that is our representation. No eroding that representation at all.

Flapjak · 16/02/2021 11:43

Barrack, wish that could be printed on a billboard ! Exactly articulates what a lot of us are feeling.

gardenbird48 · 16/02/2021 11:43

@SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2

Thank you Barracker for yet another excellent post.

This sentence is particularly true and chilling:

You are the opposite sex to me, and you are also in possession of the power to have me banned and censored if I challenge you with the truth.

(Only yesterday I was telling someone dear to me about pronouns/rohypnol and so I'd like to thank you for that too. xx)

seconded re. excellent post Barracker and absolutely chilling to that sentence - freedom of speech Hmm Hmm not for women?
OP posts:
BuntingEllacott · 16/02/2021 11:47

If that Barracker post doesn't enter the lexicon of unsayable truth the same way Pronouns are Rohypnol did, I'll be very surprised.

I will also be surprised if it doesn't prompt a deletion and punishment the same as the Rohypnol post did, but if you learn anything doing this, it's that the Streisand effect is a powerful thing.

DialSquare · 16/02/2021 11:47

Excellent post as usual Barracker. How anyone could read that and still not see the issues this agenda creates, I will never know.

AbsintheFriends · 16/02/2021 11:48

I am furious that Michelle's post was deleted.

I read so much on MN. I'm here most days, as new injustices and challenges and assaults on the rights and freedoms of women and girls arise, and I read the thousands of responses of the incredibly articulate, intelligent and well-informed women here. But every now and again someone writes a post and you think - that's it. That nails all the arguments we're trying to make - about politics and safe spaces and sport and censorship. Right there, that addresses it all, eloquently and succinctly and with devastating clarity.

And then it gets deleted.

And the deletion message on the page gives the impression to anyone who comes along afterwards that what was said was offensive or hateful, rather than true and unpalatable to those who absolutely refuse to relinquish their centuries-old control of the narrative.

SophocIestheFox · 16/02/2021 11:49

I wonder to what extent anyone could claim to be able to represent women’s views if that person was on record on this forum likening feminists to concentration camp guards and equating the emotional impact of the phrase “adult human female” with that of swastikas?

Would you suppose that that person was minded to listen and engage with women’s concerns? Do you feel you could represent me, Robin, when you find my extremely moderate view that sex is real and women’s rights matter to be so repellant?

I don’t have a screenshot of the concentration camp guard remark as it was, quite rightly, deleted. The swastika comment still stands here though: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3878404-Guerilla-postcards-from-the-edge-Lily-Maynard-blog-post

50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel
Barracker · 16/02/2021 11:53

I fear this could be the point at which you are evicted from MN, however

I really hope not. I reviewed my post multiple times before posting in a concerted attempt to stay both within talk guidelines, and 'in the spirit'.

There are no personal attacks, no incivility, no false claims, no 'misgendering'. No hatred. No 'hate speech'. It's all in good faith. I've been on Mumsnet for over a decade and I have always tried to abide by the rules whilst they exist, even if I have lobbied for rules to be reconsidered.

I believe my posts are honest and fair.

It's a genuine, sincere extension of a request to a member of the opposite sex to me to waive their right to have us all censored or banned for using the word man in relation to them specifically. That power can be waived. Or it can be wielded. But MNHQ will abide by the wishes of the subject, whether those wishes are to waive that censorship power or wield it.

Sukibert · 16/02/2021 11:53

Thank-you Barracker for stating the simple truth of this situation and the inequality of the power dynamic against women

ZIGGY7 · 16/02/2021 11:55

Hell to the yeah, @Barracker. You speak for me. I think I love you.

WeAreJackieWeaver · 16/02/2021 11:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Winesalot · 16/02/2021 11:56

Extend your explicit permission to the women on Mumsnet to state the truth which is so unpalatable to you. Tell MNHQ that they should not censor or ban women for knowing and saying what you are in relation to your sex. Either to you directly, or about you. If you allow women to talk to you in the framework of naming reality, we can meet on this forum as equals.
We can debate as equals.
Because right now, we are not. You are the opposite sex to me, and you are also in possession of the power to have me banned and censored if I challenge you with the truth.

It is very apparent from this thread that the limitations on us speaking the truth are a huge barrier to communicating effectively. Yet, a so called proponent of free speech seems quite ok because it doesn’t fit their concept of what speech should be rightfully protected.

Only speech in line with the needs of the few is acceptable. Hypocritical indeed.

ArabellaScott · 16/02/2021 11:56

Deletions? What for, now?!

mindtheclegs · 16/02/2021 11:56

@Clymene

Any transwomen who think they should take a space reserved for a woman is a misogynist. I don't care if it's sport, employment or politics.

Campaign for trans representation. But you don't and cannot represent women.

^^ This. And the transwomen who continue to do this, know that this is true.

Great post Clymene.

Floisme · 16/02/2021 11:57

A very fair challenge from Barracker and one I would have thought any decent barrister, who after all earns a living through debate and reasoned argument, would welcome.

Kit19 · 16/02/2021 11:58

That is a perfect post Barracker - I cannot believe in the 21st century that it needs saying

Winesalot · 16/02/2021 11:58

Damn. ‘ok with it’ because it doesn’t fit their concept of what speech should be rightfully protected.

unwashedanddazed · 16/02/2021 12:03

Barracker You have a stunning ability to fillet the arguments down to their essential truth. Thank you.

mindtheclegs · 16/02/2021 12:04

I would love to see RW respond to Barracker's challenge. But I think it will go unanswered.

(Btw has anyone archived B's post?)

Datun · 16/02/2021 12:07

@Barracker

I fear this could be the point at which you are evicted from MN, however

I really hope not. I reviewed my post multiple times before posting in a concerted attempt to stay both within talk guidelines, and 'in the spirit'.

There are no personal attacks, no incivility, no false claims, no 'misgendering'. No hatred. No 'hate speech'. It's all in good faith. I've been on Mumsnet for over a decade and I have always tried to abide by the rules whilst they exist, even if I have lobbied for rules to be reconsidered.

I believe my posts are honest and fair.

It's a genuine, sincere extension of a request to a member of the opposite sex to me to waive their right to have us all censored or banned for using the word man in relation to them specifically. That power can be waived. Or it can be wielded. But MNHQ will abide by the wishes of the subject, whether those wishes are to waive that censorship power or wield it.

I don't think it will be deleted, either. I certainly think it will be reported.

It's an incredibly circumspect post. No rules are broken. Neither is it not in the spirit. Quite the opposite. Robin has asserted, on this very thread, that they want to listen and move forward in order to progress.

Well there is, that's the stall.

Let's have it.

snow21 · 16/02/2021 12:15

@Barracker

I know some are still willing to take what they see as reasonable compromises with language. But honestly, when we pretend that it's ok for some men to be called 'transwomen', that use of the word 'woman' right there in relation to a man is all it takes to render the truth invisible and impossible to reassert.

We end up trying to argue about a somethingwoman representing us, when the truth is, it's just a man.

We end up arguing the case for somethingwomen to argue for their own increased representation, a bit like the otherwomen - us. But what we're actually doing is arguing for more men. This is insane.

Men don't need extra representation of a certain type of man. There are already too many men. Far too many. If men who don't like certain sartorial choices, or who don't have certain personality types think it vital to cede places to men who do, have at it, men. I don't think that's an important characteristic, but you can fight your own battles amongst yourselves.

There's only one antidote to the situation we find ourselves in, and it's brutally plain speech. So it's no coincidence that laws are springing up and policies being written and public platforms enacting censorship to prevent anyone from using it.

Men are men. We need to be able to say "this is a man, he's simply a man" whether the man dislikes us saying it or not.
Truth, fairness and dignity demand it.

Couching words in euphemisms and lies is rendering it impossible to cut to the truth.

Men are representing women.
Men are taking women's places.
Men are dictating the language women can use.
Men are breaching women's boundaries.
Men are rewriting rules for what women may and may not do.

And yet, we are forbidden from pointing to a single man who is doing this and stating "He is a man".

It doesn't matter if a man thinks me rude or hurtful for referencing him as the man that he is. It's vital that the truth is used.

No amount of his hurt feelings at us both knowing that he's a man can measure up against the monstrous injustice enacted upon women in forcing us to pretend he's any kind of a woman. It's psychological torture and well he knows it.

Ironic that I should try to say this here on Mumsnet, where it's a bannable offence to actually tell a specific named man that he's a man, if he forbids me to.

I'm only allowed to generalise. I'm permitted to say 'all males are men', but not 'this male here is a man'.

So here's a challenge, RobinMoiraWhite.

Extend your explicit permission to the women on Mumsnet to state the truth which is so unpalatable to you. Tell MNHQ that they should not censor or ban women for knowing and saying what you are in relation to your sex. Either to you directly, or about you. If you allow women to talk to you in the framework of naming reality, we can meet on this forum as equals.
We can debate as equals.
Because right now, we are not. You are the opposite sex to me, and you are also in possession of the power to have me banned and censored if I challenge you with the truth.

I cannot have you censored and banned for calling yourself a woman. Nor would I. I would rather successfully argue my case why you are not.
But you can have me censored and banned for calling you a man.
Waive your power to do that. You shouldn't have that power.

Other men who still call themselves transwomen have extended their 'permission' to allow women to refer to them as the men they are. It shouldn't be lost on you that we're in a situation of such a power imbalance that women require a man's permission to call him a man.

So. If you see women as your equals, I'm asking you to waive your right to censor us. If you believe in the power of honest debate, you will cede your power to have women banned for stating the truth.

You will call yourself what you wish.
And we will refer to you in our own honest, civil and fair terms.

Then we can meet as equals.

What do you say?

I stand by every word here.

If MNHQ you decide to strike/delete Baracker then you need to delete me too.

BettyFilous · 16/02/2021 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 16/02/2021 12:21

A slight detail but DD 12/nearly 13 overhead me listening to a clip of Joanna Cherry at the weekend (one I'd seen on FWR where she's discussing "chest feeding "). She asked me what it was about and i explained.

When having a peek at her web search later (checking she's safe in case anyone wonders if I'm snooping) I saw "who is Joanna Cherry"! And "what's gaslighting ".

Little fires everywhere... Wink

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/02/2021 12:21

I know some are still willing to take what they see as reasonable compromises with language. But honestly, when we pretend that it's ok for some men to be called 'transwomen', that use of the word 'woman' right there in relation to a man is all it takes to render the truth invisible and impossible to reassert.

We end up trying to argue about a somethingwoman representing us, when the truth is, it's just a man.

Exactly this.

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