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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel

999 replies

gardenbird48 · 15/02/2021 18:28

I saw 50:50 women tweet to Sue Pascoe Chair of the Conservative Women’s Organisation some time ago on their #askhertostand, but then I couldn’t find the tweet and thought maybe they’d realised their mistake (can you guess?) and deleted it.

However, how wrong I was! There are now two people that have extremely limited ‘lived experience’ as a female (Sue was a married father and successful businessman and Master to Foxhounds until a few years ago). The other person has said hi on here recently.

I don’t mean to be rude but surely the whole point of encouraging women to stand for Parliament is to help overcome the barriers women face in entering politics. Any barriers that trans people face are rather different. It is also interesting that on a panel of three for their ‘Encouraging LGBT+ Women to Stand’ campaign, there us only one person with actual lived experience of being a woman (I am hoping that Mandu Reid of the WEP was born female at least...??)

50:50 Parliament Campaign to Encourage Women in Politics now have TWO Transwomen on the Panel
OP posts:
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Melroses · 16/02/2021 12:45

@Winesalot

‘DC needs one of us, and we can only afford for it to be you.’

This ^^. Absolutely true.

Yes.
TinselAngel · 16/02/2021 12:46

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picklemewalnuts · 16/02/2021 12:48

@Barracker

I know some are still willing to take what they see as reasonable compromises with language. But honestly, when we pretend that it's ok for some men to be called 'transwomen', that use of the word 'woman' right there in relation to a man is all it takes to render the truth invisible and impossible to reassert.

We end up trying to argue about a somethingwoman representing us, when the truth is, it's just a man.

We end up arguing the case for somethingwomen to argue for their own increased representation, a bit like the otherwomen - us. But what we're actually doing is arguing for more men. This is insane.

Men don't need extra representation of a certain type of man. There are already too many men. Far too many. If men who don't like certain sartorial choices, or who don't have certain personality types think it vital to cede places to men who do, have at it, men. I don't think that's an important characteristic, but you can fight your own battles amongst yourselves.

There's only one antidote to the situation we find ourselves in, and it's brutally plain speech. So it's no coincidence that laws are springing up and policies being written and public platforms enacting censorship to prevent anyone from using it.

Men are men. We need to be able to say "this is a man, he's simply a man" whether the man dislikes us saying it or not.
Truth, fairness and dignity demand it.

Couching words in euphemisms and lies is rendering it impossible to cut to the truth.

Men are representing women.
Men are taking women's places.
Men are dictating the language women can use.
Men are breaching women's boundaries.
Men are rewriting rules for what women may and may not do.

And yet, we are forbidden from pointing to a single man who is doing this and stating "He is a man".

It doesn't matter if a man thinks me rude or hurtful for referencing him as the man that he is. It's vital that the truth is used.

No amount of his hurt feelings at us both knowing that he's a man can measure up against the monstrous injustice enacted upon women in forcing us to pretend he's any kind of a woman. It's psychological torture and well he knows it.

Ironic that I should try to say this here on Mumsnet, where it's a bannable offence to actually tell a specific named man that he's a man, if he forbids me to.

I'm only allowed to generalise. I'm permitted to say 'all males are men', but not 'this male here is a man'.

So here's a challenge, RobinMoiraWhite.

Extend your explicit permission to the women on Mumsnet to state the truth which is so unpalatable to you. Tell MNHQ that they should not censor or ban women for knowing and saying what you are in relation to your sex. Either to you directly, or about you. If you allow women to talk to you in the framework of naming reality, we can meet on this forum as equals.
We can debate as equals.
Because right now, we are not. You are the opposite sex to me, and you are also in possession of the power to have me banned and censored if I challenge you with the truth.

I cannot have you censored and banned for calling yourself a woman. Nor would I. I would rather successfully argue my case why you are not.
But you can have me censored and banned for calling you a man.
Waive your power to do that. You shouldn't have that power.

Other men who still call themselves transwomen have extended their 'permission' to allow women to refer to them as the men they are. It shouldn't be lost on you that we're in a situation of such a power imbalance that women require a man's permission to call him a man.

So. If you see women as your equals, I'm asking you to waive your right to censor us. If you believe in the power of honest debate, you will cede your power to have women banned for stating the truth.

You will call yourself what you wish.
And we will refer to you in our own honest, civil and fair terms.

Then we can meet as equals.

What do you say?

Stunning post. I've not finished reading the thread, but can't miss this.
happydappy2 · 16/02/2021 12:50

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MichelleofzeResistance · 16/02/2021 12:51

This is not just a lone voice of a MNetter expressing their views on equal terms though is it? This is someone who has and is discussing on the thread their personal direct access and having the ear of government. Something I doubt anyone else on the thread has. And I doubt that the information reaching government from those with the power to be heard represents a balance of voices, or the care for all interests that HQ has.

SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2 · 16/02/2021 12:53

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SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2 · 16/02/2021 12:56

I see many comments on these threads along the lines of - "nobody asked women if they wanted this"..

This (thing we are talking about now) is a very good example of that.

Justhadathought · 16/02/2021 12:56

We all face different difficulties

Precisely, and yours are different.

Why don't you put your significant campaigning zeal to more productive use in campaigning for third spaces and provisions, rather than trying to force entry into spaces and provisions that other groups have campigned for, value, and wish to maintain for themselves?

RozWatching · 16/02/2021 12:56

Tinsel Flowers

I would have thought likening women's rights campaigners to Nazis would result in an instant lifetime ban?

picklemewalnuts · 16/02/2021 12:57

Adding to gardenbirds list of displaced women-
mridul wadhal , manager of a rape crisis centre in Scotland.

All the athletes who lose out to transwomen competitors.

Justhadathought · 16/02/2021 13:02

It’s the insistence on being in women’s spaces that is the problem

Absolutely!

What's wrong with third spaces, if comfort, safety, dignity and equal provision is really the goal?

gardenbird48 · 16/02/2021 13:02

@picklemewalnuts

Adding to gardenbirds list of displaced women- mridul wadhal , manager of a rape crisis centre in Scotland.

All the athletes who lose out to transwomen competitors.

thank you, I'll put it on the offline list :¬))

I've just seen another one

Emma Cuthertson SNP Women's Officer

OP posts:
Mumfun · 16/02/2021 13:03

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/02/2021 13:05

I appreciate that people born male who later transition to transwomen have many challenges indeed. But they are not my challenges, they are not the challenges that people born female face. Therefore they are just not relevant in trying to persuade girls and women into politics. And every time a place is offered and taken in this way, we fail to hear the voice of a woman

I recognise that the thread has moved on, but this is so true. I have never, ever had a TW recognise the obstacles, discrimination, oppression and subsequent pain that I have experienced as a girl and now woman. Ever. It's all take, take, take and no give.

Mumfun · 16/02/2021 13:06

And it would be interesting to see a list of RobinMoiraWhite difficulties that they have experienced laid out in a factual way. (and I am stating this in a factual way also)

I bet that I would not have much of the same experiences in common. Nor most of the Feminist Board members

RobinMoiraWhite · 16/02/2021 13:08

I have found this a really interesting thread.

Presumably I have some small standing to comment as the thread was started to comment negatively on my invitation to speak at the 50:50 event. I, and those who invited me to speak believe that I have something useful to contribute, many here do not. I am not a believer in 'no platforming' except in very extreme circumstances. My working life involves civilsed discussion of sometimes very difficult topics in a public venue, so there may be an element of 'horses for courses.'

But for some the debate on this thread is now answering a question not asked in that I am not, and have never claimed to be 'speaking for women' defined, presumably as women who hold negative views against me. That's never been my position. Anyone who has heard me speak (when speaking personally) will know that I speak from my experience, and sometimes contrast that with the experiences of others.

Professionally, I am there to speak for those I represent, and in my legal career that has included, for example, a number of cases in which women struggled to bring a legal claim because of the absence of a 'harassment' protection in discrimination legislation until it was amended in. At much the same time I was part of the long road to have PTSD recognised as a disability under the relevant legislation. I dont consider myself disabled.

On a personal level, I believe that, unless their object is harm to other citizens, all citizens have a right to live in peace and comfort, AND my view is that that is most likely to be achieved by working together, rather than stamping down other folks. That might not be your view, and you are entitled to that view. It mystifies me, however, how you are to build the consensus that will lead to positive change from that approach.

Sure, I dont have the life experiences of those who have lived lives differently from mine, but I like to think I can read across from my life experiences to the difficulties experienced by others, and speak up FOR and WITH them when it is necessary or important to do so.

Datun · 16/02/2021 13:09

@MichelleofzeResistance

This is not just a lone voice of a MNetter expressing their views on equal terms though is it? This is someone who has and is discussing on the thread their personal direct access and having the ear of government. Something I doubt anyone else on the thread has. And I doubt that the information reaching government from those with the power to be heard represents a balance of voices, or the care for all interests that HQ has.
Indeed. Robin has written extensively about the issue. About their opinion of women in the issue, what women say, what they think women say, what they think we should say, the fact that sex-based rights are not based on sex, the Staniland question, and their opinion on the dignity and discomfort of women.

And Robin now represents the opposition in a lesbian woman's fight to have her sexuality not misrepresented or her employers influenced.

Robin is actively seeking representation and amplification.

And now they have the ear of the government with which to do so.

A lone voice they are not.

What they are getting is vehement disagreement on a website largely for women.

Which cannot come as a surprise to anybody.

SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2 · 16/02/2021 13:11

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RedToothBrush · 16/02/2021 13:11

@MichelleofzeResistance

This is not just a lone voice of a MNetter expressing their views on equal terms though is it? This is someone who has and is discussing on the thread their personal direct access and having the ear of government. Something I doubt anyone else on the thread has. And I doubt that the information reaching government from those with the power to be heard represents a balance of voices, or the care for all interests that HQ has.
Indeed.

Robin can go off and tell parliament that women say x or feel y. Except they really don't. Robin gets the power to censor what women think by mere virtue of being picked as a woman to represent women. A privilege given to them because of the ironic twist that they are not female.

They have the power to decide what is a validate concern of women that Parliament should be aware of and what they want to dismiss because they don't like and have the power to label as bigoted or 'fuzzy notions'.

Robin isn't elected. Robin has been appointed or nominated to the role.

They dont represent in any way shape or form.

BuntingEllacott · 16/02/2021 13:12

Any response to Barracker then?

SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2 · 16/02/2021 13:12

How ironic it will be if Mumfun's list of things we cannot mention..gets deleted.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 16/02/2021 13:13

I am grateful for you posting on this thread, Robyn - it is refreshing to have anyone from the trans community engage with us.

Will you answer Barracker's points? I am genuinely interested.

Thank you, Mumsnet HQ for allowing #yesdebate. Without it, I fear transphobia will rise.

Justhadathought · 16/02/2021 13:14

All citizens have a right to live in peace and comfort, AND my view is that that is most likely to be achieved by working together, rather than stamping down other folks

Consensus does not necessarily lead to mergence and denial of difference, though. I suspect that the 'Consensus' position that most people would come to, would be that 'third spaces, services and provisions' are the solution to everyone having a space that provides them with the necessary protections, provision, comfort, safety and dignity that they require.

There can be no consensus when one group is trying to force itself or its visions onto another group; that sounds far more like subjugation.

Mumfun · 16/02/2021 13:15

From Twitter today: twitter.com/genderisharmful/status/1361475669281153026

Thread of a fantastic response from a guy called John Stevens to another guy about women's life experiences:

"David Horncat, the problem with you is that this is an intellectual discussion for you. All logic. In the frontal cortex. No trauma, no real negative experiences. 1/
The women you feel entitled to school know all about this subject from first hand experience. They know what it’s like to be accosted at age 7 by a man showing his penis. They know what it’s like to be sexualised at age 9. They know what it’s like to have men stare at your
2/
breasts and catcall you aged 11. Women know what it feels like when Uncle Joe casually drapes his arm over your shoulder during the family picture & ‘accidentally’ brush against your breast, then do exactly the same next year & the yr after that (except you’re ready this time).3/
Women know what it’s like to be asleep at age 13 and wake to find a male relative in their bed. Women know what it’s like at age 14 to have boys all over you trying to have sex, then shouting you're frigid because you said no. Women know what it’s like at age 15...
4/
to have an ‘accident’ with their period & the ongoing embarrassment & teasing by boys. Women know what it’s like to have a teacher explain that he gave a male student an A grade because he wants to be a pilot & you were given a B grade because you will probably only be a
5/
housewife. Women know what it’s like at age 18 to finally have sex with your boyfriend because he has been pestering you for the last six months and men have needs. Women know what it’s like to go on a date and have to cover their drinks in case a man put drugs in it.
6/
Women know what it’s like to have to go out in groups at night because of the danger. Women know what it’s like to hear about rapes and sexual assaults and domestic violence every day of their entire lives.
7/
Women know what it’s like at age 19 to have the job description change for a new male employee because that’s too dull and boring for a man.
8/
Women know what it’s like to get married at 21 and have kids at 23 because that’s what is expected of you. Women know what it’s like at 23 to discover your husband believes in traditional roles.
9/
women know what it’s like to be the household slave, to do all the work while he gets to sit down after a day at the office. women know what it’s like to be expected to put everyone’s needs before their own, the requirement to be kind, thoughtful, forgiving, accepting,
10/
tolerant, quiet, without needs or wants. Women know what it’s like to be raped and never believed. Women know what it’s like to be beaten to a pulp and then questioned about your own behaviour. Women know what it’s like to have men NEVER hold other men to account.
11/
They know who gets moved on or fired when the office affair ends. They know who is held accountable for the family breakdown when the man has an extra marital affair.
12/
Women know who is held responsible when a man impregnates a woman. Women know what it’s like when a man thinks he owns you just because he deposited some sperm in your vagina.
13
Women know what it’s like to have the courts tell you you’re lying when you tell them he's raping his daughter. Women know what it’s like to have to hand your daughter over to her rapist every second weekend. Women know what it’s like to raise children alone with no financial
14/
support from the father. Women know what it’s like to be villified as the single mum because you have taken responsibility and the father never gets mentioned.

And that’s not even half of it.

Wake up, shut up, listen and learn!
15.

ElfAndSafetyInspector · 16/02/2021 13:16

[quote SophocIestheFox]I wonder to what extent anyone could claim to be able to represent women’s views if that person was on record on this forum likening feminists to concentration camp guards and equating the emotional impact of the phrase “adult human female” with that of swastikas?

Would you suppose that that person was minded to listen and engage with women’s concerns? Do you feel you could represent me, Robin, when you find my extremely moderate view that sex is real and women’s rights matter to be so repellant?

I don’t have a screenshot of the concentration camp guard remark as it was, quite rightly, deleted. The swastika comment still stands here though: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3878404-Guerilla-postcards-from-the-edge-Lily-Maynard-blog-post[/quote]
A very lawyerly way of rehearsing the old MRA "feminazi" trope....

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