My school science department is confusing sex with gender

[beatrice14]

To all you wise mumsnetters out there,

I know I'm not really the right demographic for this board, (I'm 15), but I've really enjoyed lurking and reading posts here, and I was interested to see what people on here might think about this. My science teacher just sent round this email which mixed up sex and gender and then said that sex was a spectrum, and conflated intersex with transgender. I'm gender critical myself, and I disagreed with a lot of it, and found it rather odd. I've pasted it below, with the links they sent.
As we approach half term midway through this month of LGBT+ History month, you might like to read some of the materials below on the biology of sex and gender. We think it’s important to recognise that, whilst biology textbooks teach about sex in a fairly binary way, X and Y chromosomes are by no means the only factors that determine biological gender. It’s also important to note the damage that a binary concept of gender can have on the physical and mental health of those who don’t identify as male or female, or as their assigned gender. The following links might give you some interesting scientific material that presents the concept of gender in a much more recognised spectrum. To quote the final article in this list, which summarises it so well:

“Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary; it may not even be a linear spectrum. Like many other facets of identity, it can operate on a broad range of levels and operate outside of many definitions. And it also appears that gender may not be as static as we assume. At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned.”

Articles

Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic - Scientific American

Sex isn't binary, and we should stop acting like it is (massivesci.com)

Sex redefined : Nature News & Comment

When Sex and Gender Collide - Scientific American

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News (harvard.edu)

Podcasts

BBC Radio 4 - BBC Inside Science, Sex, gender and sport - the Caster Semenya case and the latest Denisovan discovery

We hope these provide an interesting source of material for you to extend your understanding of this important topic.

"Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary"

Gender is social construct. It has no place in a science lesson.

Under the criteria for gender identity disorder you may well have been diagnosed, but because you aren't trans you would likely have then added to the desistance statistics: hence they seem so high in older, flawed studies.

This is what we call a "just so story". It's quite possible that the lower rates of desistance in the later studies don't account for children being medicalised with puberty blockers (the full effect of which on development is unknown) and fully socially transitioned, which is harder to reverse or row back from than it was in the past. Also, I don't believe many of them have long term follow up?

Hi alexk9, interesting to hear your point of view. It seems that the criteria for dysphoria are pretty strong then, which is good. But I strongly disagree with describing gender non-conforming behaviour as a 'gender identity disorder'. It's horribly negative and labelling. There was nothing wrong with me, and there still isn't. I did not have a disorder, and I still don't. The disorder is the empty stereotypes that girls and boys have to fit into, not the people who don't want to fit into them. When I was under-8, I would say that I was a boy some days and a girl other days. It was nothing to do with gender dysphoria or identity disorder or whatever. What I meant was that I preferred doing boy stuff and that I didn't like wearing dresses etc, so I had decided to be a boy and not do those things. Obviously, as I got older, I learnt that being a boy or girl isn't what you like doing or wearing, it's your anatomy! Anybody can like or wear what they want, there's no such thing as 'boy clothes', 'girl toys', or there shouldn't be. But this 'gender identity disorder' is rubbish. I suppose George Sand had gender identity disorder because she liked wearing men's clothes and used a male name with her family because she liked the freedom men had. I suppose Rupert Everett had a gender identity disorder, because like many gay men and women, he wanted to be the opposite sex as a kid, until he hit puberty and realised he was gay. I mean, reallly!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don't think it's unreasonable/untestable to suggest that the older studies had skewed rates of desistance owing to the fact that they used flawed criteria?

'Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis (2008) reported that “all participants in the persistence group were given a complete GID diagnosis in childhood, whereas half of the group of desisting children was subthreshold for the diagnosis”.'
research.library.mun.ca/13342/1/201803temple-newhookfinala.pdf (p. 5)

Perhaps recent studies are flawed in other ways - I'm struggling to find a recent one online! - but that doesn't discount the impact of the flaws of the old ones.

@beatrice14

That's not what I'm calling it? That is literally what the old term for gender dysphoria was, and it was bad and that's why it has changed! If you look at the table in the article I sent that compares the two (GID and GD) then you'll see what I mean. The high desistance rates you are
citing were influenced by GNC children being called trans under the label of gender identity disorder - this is my whole point!

I'm sorry alex, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that I had gender identity disorder as a child, but I see that was silly and I misread. There's a lot ofstrong feeling around this, and it's easy to too quick writing stuff. But I'm still not satisfied with the dysphoria criteria. As a child, I would have said if the doctor had asked me, that I was a boy and that I didn't like girl toys. Because I defined being a 'boy ' or 'girl' with what you did and wore. But if the doctor had said, 'The only difference between being a boy or girl is anatomy, not what you wear or do. Do you want a boy's body? Do you like yours?' I would've said,'Sure! I like my body and don't want a different one! I didn't realise that was the only difference between males and females.' So I might have said the 'dysphoria answer', but it wouldn't have meant I had dysphoria.

Perhaps recent studies are flawed in other ways - I'm struggling to find a recent one online! - but that doesn't discount the impact of the flaws of the old ones.

Fair point. I think other people have pointed out flaws in them, haven't got them to hand right now.

No worries, easily done. I see what you mean, but again most children seen by the Tavistock will have more than 6 sessions over a long period of time (especially the younger children) - the doctors have hours to ask detailed questions about the child's experiences.

You're aware of course that the Tavistock is facing a legal challenge, whistleblowers, review and a lot of criticism of how they operate?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You're aware of course that I linked to the legal challenge document on the first post on this page? As it says on page 5 of said document, one of the criteria is 'A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy' so Tavistock clinicians will clearly have to ask about that, meaning the hypothetical @beatrice14 raised isn't an issue.

My point is that the way the Tavistock operates with regards to children is under scrutiny, for some important reasons. There are concerns. Whistleblowers have highlighted issues such as ASD and previous sexual abuse being ignored in favour of gender affirmative treatment.

Bell expressed concern that the service was failing to fully consider psychological and social factors in a young person’s background – such as whether they had been abused, suffered a bereavement or had autism – which might influence their decision to transition. Such views are dismissed by many transgender rights activists who believe they play little, if any, part in a person’s desire to transition.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/23/child-transgender-service-governor-quits-chaos

@alexk3 you came and told the OP off for not inserting a space between ‘trans’ and ‘man’. You claimed this was ‘anti-trans’, implying that the OP was bigoted. That’s language policing and a bit petty. The equivalent would be for me to go on one of the transgender boards on reddit and complain about posters using ‘cis’ - which I would never do. It would be pointless and, while I strongly disagree with many TRA positions, I respect the need for community and peer support.

Furthermore you said yourself you were here to ‘stir the pot’, i.e. for provocation, playing devil’s advocate and so forth, on a thread on which advice was sought, not discussion. I welcome open debate but that requires tolerance, not telling a young person where she can use a space or not.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yeah I've seen that, I think the added scrutiny now with the upcoming KB appeal is good for everyone. I was just talking about OP's experience really, too much work at the minute to get dragged into massive arguments about it lol

@Daca

I didn't tell anyone off, I made a comment - not at the OP, if you actually look - that explained why their autocorrect changed the word, as the commenter said this was 'interesting'... It is only anti-trans people (in the way I would define the term) who use the incorrect term 'transman', it's not language policing at all considering I didn't say anything about whether the OP should/should not say it.

Yes, how dare I want to provoke discussion by giving information . The OP wants to learn: ' I was interested to see what people on here might think' (from original post). I supplied a different opinion to the ones usually found on here. Considering the OP has said it is 'interesting to hear [my] point of view', maybe you should let her speak for herself?

*the commenter, not the OP

Yeah I've seen that, I think the added scrutiny now with the upcoming KB appeal is good for everyone. I was just talking about OP's experience really, too much work at the minute to get dragged into massive arguments about it lol

Fair enough. And yes, the scrutiny is a positive thing for the children involved.

@alexk3 You are right, OP does not need my intervention. I wish her all the best in challenging her school’s practices which seem to contradict science, logic and equalities law.

‘Transwomen’ is not anti-trans. It reflects the fact that transwomen are male people who want to be treated as the opposite sex and can thus not be women as defined in the Equality Act 2010 as ‘females of any age’. Whether the desire to be treated as the opposite sex should override other considerations is currently hotly debated, for example in the context of UK prison policy. Personally, I am shocked by the revelations resulting from the judicial review yesterday and today. How anybody could incarcerate women with male-bodied rapists is simply beyond me.

I don’t know if you are trans yourself but if the lack of a space between these two words is exercising you terribly, may I suggest you fortify yourself as ‘transwomen’ is used rather often on this board. It is not done out of disrespect but to reflect women’s lived experience as female people. Sadly, it is not possible to change your sex, not even for a child.

@Daca

My point was (and is) that the people who use the word are often anti-trans which is not something I'm going to change my opinion on to be honest. I literally brought it up once - and not even as the main focus of my comment - it isn't me that's bothered!

@Daca

Oh missed something: this whole obsession with parroting 'you can't change your sex' on here is so bizarre... No one thinks they can change their chromosomal sex, but overall biological sex, which would include hormone levels/sex characteristics, is objectively changed in some way by transition? That's surely just common sense.

People who do X are often Y. Evidence? Or is it based on your life experience? What is ‘anti-trans’?

No, you cannot change chromosomal or biological sex. A male person who ingests synthetic estrogen and progesterone remains a male person. I am female. If I take testosterone, I will not grow a male reproductive system. That’s all that sex is. Reproductive function. And because reproduction is important for humans as a species, sex impacts multiple aspects of our physiology, from skeletons to internal organs, the immune system and so on.

We are human, all of us, but we are also mammals, i.e. animals, and it is our animal nature that we often struggle with.

alexk3 no, biological sex cant be changed. A penis can be inverted, but obviously that cant ever recreate a vulva, vagina, uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes. A breast implant isnt breast tissue, and I dont think anyone has ever even tried to recreate anything like a prostrate gland.

Hi, it's been really good to be able to discuss with you guys and hear different points of view. It's nice to be able to say what you think and disagree without getting heated, I only which that my school were a bit more like mumsnet- they still haven't replied, but I doubt that they'll take much notice of what my mum and I wrote.

Beatrice I just wanted to say what an articulate and thoughtful young woman you are. We have had other young feminists come to this board recently, it has been wonderful to see that the future of feminism and of women is in good hands.

Good luck - I'm sure you have a very bright future ahead of you.

@TheCuriousMonkey

Beatrice I just wanted to say what an articulate and thoughtful young woman you are. We have had other young feminists come to this board recently, it has been wonderful to see that the future of feminism and of women is in good hands.

Good luck - I'm sure you have a very bright future ahead of you.

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