My school science department is confusing sex with gender

[beatrice14]

To all you wise mumsnetters out there,

I know I'm not really the right demographic for this board, (I'm 15), but I've really enjoyed lurking and reading posts here, and I was interested to see what people on here might think about this. My science teacher just sent round this email which mixed up sex and gender and then said that sex was a spectrum, and conflated intersex with transgender. I'm gender critical myself, and I disagreed with a lot of it, and found it rather odd. I've pasted it below, with the links they sent.
As we approach half term midway through this month of LGBT+ History month, you might like to read some of the materials below on the biology of sex and gender. We think it’s important to recognise that, whilst biology textbooks teach about sex in a fairly binary way, X and Y chromosomes are by no means the only factors that determine biological gender. It’s also important to note the damage that a binary concept of gender can have on the physical and mental health of those who don’t identify as male or female, or as their assigned gender. The following links might give you some interesting scientific material that presents the concept of gender in a much more recognised spectrum. To quote the final article in this list, which summarises it so well:

“Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary; it may not even be a linear spectrum. Like many other facets of identity, it can operate on a broad range of levels and operate outside of many definitions. And it also appears that gender may not be as static as we assume. At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned.”

Articles

Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic - Scientific American

Sex isn't binary, and we should stop acting like it is (massivesci.com)

Sex redefined : Nature News & Comment

When Sex and Gender Collide - Scientific American

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News (harvard.edu)

Podcasts

BBC Radio 4 - BBC Inside Science, Sex, gender and sport - the Caster Semenya case and the latest Denisovan discovery

We hope these provide an interesting source of material for you to extend your understanding of this important topic.

It does seem to confuse two completely different categories.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I get that some lesbians might consider transition to escape prejudice, but that's not tha same as gender dysphoria.

Can I suggest if you get a bad reply or none at all, say by the end of term, that this is raised with the School Governors. Your school website should include how to contact them.

Give the teachers the chance to reply first though.

Some people do take testosterone or have top surgery and still identify as lesbians, though. Whether you (or anyone on here) likes that or not, it is something people do.

Thanks for the replies, I'm still awaiting one from my school. The lesbians email just seems to be mixing up two things which are rather different - I thought that transmen, who want to take testosterone and have top surgery are different from butch lesbians, as lesbians are women who are attracted to women, whereas transmen are unhappy with being born women and want to change sex, so if they are attracted to women and want to be a man, surely they would identify as a straight man? No objection if they want to do this, but it just felt that the email from school was mixing the two issues up. And there could also be pressure for butch lesbians to identify as transmen, so it's complicated. I am not an expert, of course, and I may have got this wrong.

@beatrice14

Any pressure for butch lesbians to identify as trans men is a myth not at all based in reality. You can take testosterone and have top surgery and not want to be a man/still identifying as a woman.

I give you this from Edexcel board past papers. No wonder science teachers are confused at times.

A butch lesbian taking testosterone could be a transman** and also recognise that homosexuality is sex-based and therefore recognise they are a lesbian.

**interesting, my phone autocorrect just made that into two words, and is now showing a red underline for it as a single word...

I don't buy this is from a school pupil. I know you all really want it to be though.

@Okbussitout

I don't buy this is from a school pupil. I know you all really want it to be though.

Why would it not be?

@wantmorenow

I give you this from Edexcel board past papers. No wonder science teachers are confused at times.

I suppose that they use "gender" in the question because asking "Comment on how sex could affect..." would result in all sort of smart alec responses from bored teenagers.

@ThinkWittyThoughts

And some lesbians want to take testosterone and have top surgery but still think of themselves as a woman. Also that’ll be because only anti-trans people don’t use a space, it’s not actually one word.

No wonder science teachers are confused at times. This from Edexcel past papers.

Oops double post.

Lots of questions use the term sex. At A level, it's not term that should be avoided.

Thanks for the replies. ThinkWittyThoughts, I get it now. I don't have any problem with that, but I have seen a lot of stuff on MN that gnc or lgb children and teens may feel dysphoric for a while, especially if there's a lot of pressure from peers to conform to gender stereotypes. Then most end up being gnc, lgb etc , but a minority are trans and will want surgery when adult. I have plenty of observed and personal experience of this, as well as lurking a bit on MN, so I am afraid that I disagree with you, alex. I thought the butch lesbian email was good on the whole, it's my teacher's one that is really silly.
By the way, Okbussitout, I wouldn't underestimate teenagers if I were you.. you never know what we might be as adults!

[quote alexk3]@ThinkWittyThoughts

And some lesbians want to take testosterone and have top surgery but still think of themselves as a woman. Also that’ll be because only anti-trans people don’t use a space, it’s not actually one word.[/quote]

I'm not anti-trans.

I just make a grammatical choice to use one word. Much as I chose to use "no-one" rather than "no one" or "noone", double spaces after a full stop, and the Oxford comma.

Thankfully, my choice is still legal.

alexk3 , I have just been reading the thread where you wrote about your experiences with these issues , and I am really sorry if anything I have written on this has offended you or upset you. I still stick by my concerns, but I can see that this issue is very close to home for you, so I am sorry for replying tersely above. I thought you might be on here for a wind-up, but I now see this is definitely not the case. I hope you are not upset by anything I've written.

@beatrice14

I would maybe do some research outside of mumsnet if you’re interested in balance. Studies about desisting trans children are often very methodologically flawed: www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth

No worries, though. Just might be good for your whole emailing thing if you have a range of info - hence my slight stirring of the pot!

As a teacher I’m appalled that this teacher is using their platform to push their own woke ideas onto impressionable young people. Shame on them

I admire your tenacity, OP, and your critical thinking.

I don't admire the language police on here. As we get closer to International Women's Day (which seems to be triggering to some people), we are getting more derails and disruptions. I'd never plop on a forum for adherents to gender identity ideology to "stir the pot" - how rude.

@Daca

Hmmm, seems a bit like ‘no debate’ to me! Lol

I welcome people to these boards who don't agree with the majority. It makes for interesting debate (!) and is useful for lurkers.

I'm not a fan of the very tight lines we have to follow, or the constant reporting, but this is a public forum and is open to criticism.

I personally think alexk3 has been respectiful, and frankly it is wise to consider lots of different sources when considering arguments in a debate.

Keep cracking on as you are @beatrice14, you're a bloody impressive young woman.

Thanks for the article, alexk3, it was very ineresting. I feel even more sceptical, though. I thought that dysphoria was disliking one's body, but they seem to list a lot of other things that they want to label.The other symptoms they list(saying one is the other sex, cross-dressing, cross-gender roles in play, playing with the other gender, rejecting games etc of one's own sex) are things that could also be applied to a lot of gay or just gnc children. To give my experience, I was a lot like the tomboys in 'To Kill a Mockingbird' or 'Fried Green Tomatoes', as a kid, and apart from having friends of both sexes, I ticked all the boxes on that list. I even had a boy's name as a nickname (fairly common, I've learnt, Katharine Hepburn called herself 'Jimmy'). Fortunately, my family were fine with it, and didn't try and label it as gender-fluid or whatever. I don't mind being girly sometimes, but in my class one year at secondary school, everyone was really into performing femininity, and moaned on about how if someone callled them a tomboy they would feel really insulted and that being a tomboy was a stage girls ought to grow out of, and for a while it got me down, I don't mind people liking different stuff, but it was the way they implied that you had to be girly to be a girl. I read about Colette and Alison Bechdel to remind myself that they were wrong. Sorry for the long post, but it just means that I can see how I might have been trans if my family hadn't been supportive, or how someone might transition because of not having come to terms with being gay etc. I definitely think that someone should transition if they have dysphoria as an adult, but I can see that as a child, although I ticked most of those boxes, it was never about wanting a male body, it was about acting in a way that traditionally is reserved for boys etc.. Sorry for the long post!

Thanks for all the posts. I think all you guys are really inspiring.

@beatrice14

Ah you're welcome! You're sort of proving my point, though. Dysphoria is about being uncomfortable with your body hence why that is in the criteria three times. Under the criteria for gender identity disorder you may well have been diagnosed, but because you aren't trans you would likely have then added to the desistance statistics: hence they seem so high in older, flawed studies. Using the current criteria for gender dysphoria you wouldn't be diagnosed as trans. With the new criteria, you have to have at least six of the eight signs, so even with the five about friends of the opposite sex or playing toys of the opposite sex you wouldn't qualify.

Further, children seen by the Tavistock have numerous appointments (usually between 3-6 but often more: www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf - point 17). I can't imagine that over those hours the clinician will just ask 'what toys do you like?' and if the child says those associated with the opposite-sex then they tick the box and move on. I would imagine they ask why they only have friends of the opposite sex/only play with toys associated with the opposite sex, and if the child says 'I just like them' then that wouldn't count, but if they said 'I'm a boy/girl and playing with girl/boy toys makes me feel really uncomfortable' then that would be a sign of dysphoria, if that makes sense. This is a long and invasive process that involves hours of questions and isn't as simple as yes/no answers and ticking boxes on a list of criteria. I (and I think most trans people) don't love the criteria either, but then children are less able to articulate their thoughts as well as adults, so I can see why there is more of a societal focus on children's criteria.