Reply from MP: sex segregated spaces.

[sofakingg00d]

I emailed my labour MP after reading the Alex Sobel tweets. Here is the response:

I know this is an emotional and fraught debate and acknowledge that there are strongly held views on all sides. Personally, I think people should be able to access facilities that match their gender identity, as they have done for many years. Indeed, under the Equality Act, trans people have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services. However, under the Act, it is lawful for single-sex services to provide a different service or refuse their service to someone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo ‘gender reassignment’, in circumstances where they can demonstrate that doing so constitutes a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’.

Trans people, particularly trans women (and by extension, particularly black trans women) are especially vulnerable to being victims of violent crime and hate crime, and they, like everyone, must feel safe in bathrooms, changing rooms, and other facilities. Of course, everyone, whether trans or cis, should use such facilities respectfully, and with consideration for other users. On refuges, I think the focus should be on ensuring services have the resources they need to meet the needs of cis women and trans women. We do of course also need to listen to people’s genuine concerns about safe spaces, particularly those who have been the victim of assault or abuse – but I think these concerns can, and should, be addressed in a sensitive way without discriminating against trans people.

I don’t think this subject can be adequately discussed and addressed on social media (or through the leaking of review recommendations, as happened last year). These discussions must be conducted on the basis of fact and respect, and Labour is committed to listening to women and to LGBT+ communities to ensure our policies protect and respect everyone’s rights. I want you to know that I am listening and that I take on board all perspectives on this issue, even if they differ from my own.

Any help in drafting a response? I want to include some stats about women Vs transwomen as victims of violent crime - anybody recall a good source?

Trans people, particularly trans women (and by extension, particularly black trans women) are especially vulnerable to being victims of violent crime and hate crime

In addition to the Latin American context that previous posters have referenced, this is also more or less true (for very many complicated, entertwined, and historically and culturally specific reasons that really should not be waded into by foreigners) in the USA. It's also tricky to talk about because there's a crazy amount of violence against black women in the USA, and it is not the same dynamic as violence against black transwomen (of course, none of it is acceptable - but some of it gets disproportionate attention).

Assuming there is not an unexpected time warp, I'd guess that your MP is NOT representing any US communities - and should not be appropriating their experiences? And then I'd suspect this person is way too lazy to do the work of understanding what is going on in her own community/constituency and in the UK.

This person sounds like a complete idiot. I'd just keep on asking her - if you have the time and energy - to justify her stances in a local or even a UK-wide context. Betcha she can't.

There are exact details for few U.K. trans women deaths if you route around. Most linked to partners or prostitution I think from memory?

The high trans women death rates are linked to Brazil. The death and rape rate for women in Brazil is stupidly high I heard

Indeed, under the Equality Act, trans people have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services.

I'm pretty sure this is not correct.

The protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' does not specifically mean that any male can access female single sex spaces. That is bullshit!

I would definitely ask them to quote the part of the Equality Act that specifically makes this clear (they won't be able to).

Also, agree about the 'black trans women' statistic. TRAs have appropriated the plight of South American trans sex workers in order to push the narrative that UK trans women are not safe in society. To see an MP doing it is pretty grim. I would push them further than this and ask to see the UK statistics on their claim.

Am so upset with the Labour Party and am dreading the next election. How can they just cast women aside like this?

I would also ask for a definition of 'woman', and 'trans person' and how the definition of 'trans' and 'gender reassignment' is currently enshrined in law.

I do think it's worth pushing on this, because that is where the cracks (or gaping chasms in this case!) start to show.

MPs often send out copy & paste, or ‘tweak’ C&P answers. In all parties.

It’s because they get asked about lots of different topics every day, and don’t have the time or staff to research in detail and then check it fits their party line.

Most MPs subscribe to their party’s service which provides the research & party line, and then the Mp/their staff tailor it to the query.
(Or they just C&P)

If you write again in a few months about the same topic, you might well get an identical answer.

If you asks specific questions you might get specific answers. But an MP is unlikely to read around a subject in great detail unless they have particular interest in it, or it’s upcoming legislation. They just don’t have the time for every topic.

(About 50-75 daily individual emails asking policy questions to my MP, plus casework which takes much longer plus campaign emails about 100 a day at the moment)
I work for an MP.

In related news- a poll has shown that labour have lost a load of female voters

There are zillions of genders. Which genders can use a womens refuge? Only those who have an internal self ID of woman?

Yes this is something I'm not often seeing being picked up on. The word "gender" as used for "gender identity" and often wrongly incorporating biological sex, can mean all manner of fanciful personal identities with "neopronouns". This is coming off tumblr and Twitter into the mainstream.

https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/what-it-means-to-be-multigender-the-questions-many-have-but-are-afraid-to-ask/

There is an infinite diversity of genders in the world. Each person has a totally unique interpretation and relationship with any gender they inhabit. There are at least as many genders as there have been humans who have lived.
I say “at least” because as it turns out, a person can embody more than one gender in their lifetime. They can even embody more than one gender at once. They can experience them as full and independent, or as partial and mixed. Genders can overlap and negate one another, they can be positive or negative, fixed or in flux, and they can coalesce in any number of combinations.

What Pronouns Should I Use For Multigender People?
The answer to this is the same as for everyone. Use whatever pronouns you are told to use. And, specifically, use all of them. If someone gives you more than one pronoun to use, don’t just pick the one that’s easy for you and ignore the rest. Use them all, and if someone asks you to use one more than the others, do that, too.

Are Multigender People Oppressed?
Yes. Being multigender is fundamentally contrary to our society’s hierarchical and exclusivist gender binary. This means that at the very least, multigender people are oppressed socially and psychologically. Our identities are made invisible, they are trivialized, othered, and dismissed. We suffer stigmatization, micro-aggressions, and various forms of body terrorism. The legitimacy of our self-understanding is called into question every day.

It needs to be made clear that pandering to this level of self absorption is not reasonable and should not be expected.

@Porridgeoat

There are exact details for few U.K. trans women deaths if you route around. Most linked to partners or prostitution I think from memory?

The high trans women death rates are linked to Brazil. The death and rape rate for women in Brazil is stupidly high I heard

Indeed and Uppity you are right, thankfully the last trans person was murdered in the U.K. in 2018. Scotland and Ireland I think have had zero trans murders ever.

I saw a recent report from the us that says even over there trans people are a third less likely to suffer violence

And in response to another pp that wondered if the low numbers is down to media reporting trans people suffering violence as women (about transmen?), we have found that the media is very keen to make it very clear when victims are trans but do conceal trans perpetrators by reporting them as women. So no.

I’m sorry to sound ignorant but I’m still learning. Is this correct? I know people holding a GRC are covered under the equality act, but isn’t the above simply self Id?

It's not correct, sex and gender ID are 'protected characteristics' but there are exceptions so you can offer single sex services and exclude people who are trans.

"everyone, must feel safe in bathrooms, changing rooms, and other facilities."

Which would naturally lead you towards 3rd spaces as the best (if not perfect) solution. Trans-women might perhaps complain that a third space isn't "affirming their gender-identity" enough for their liking, but can they complain that they wouldn't be "safe" or "feel safe" in such spaces? Maybe they could make an argument that such spaces could be deliberately targeted, or instantly identify anyone using them, but what is the alternative? If it's a case that they supposedly have to get access to female spaces, that will inevitably make some women uncomfortable, and then "everyone" isn't "feeling safe".

Is it "everyone needs to feel safe", but women need to shut up because they already are safe and are just being irrational?

As for MPs (admittedly understandable) use of a largely copy/paste reply, maybe have a copy/paste letter to send to MPs... ,"this is typically the sort of reply that people receive... here is a rebuttal to those points...".