Reply from MP: sex segregated spaces.

[sofakingg00d]

I emailed my labour MP after reading the Alex Sobel tweets. Here is the response:

I know this is an emotional and fraught debate and acknowledge that there are strongly held views on all sides. Personally, I think people should be able to access facilities that match their gender identity, as they have done for many years. Indeed, under the Equality Act, trans people have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services. However, under the Act, it is lawful for single-sex services to provide a different service or refuse their service to someone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo ‘gender reassignment’, in circumstances where they can demonstrate that doing so constitutes a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’.

Trans people, particularly trans women (and by extension, particularly black trans women) are especially vulnerable to being victims of violent crime and hate crime, and they, like everyone, must feel safe in bathrooms, changing rooms, and other facilities. Of course, everyone, whether trans or cis, should use such facilities respectfully, and with consideration for other users. On refuges, I think the focus should be on ensuring services have the resources they need to meet the needs of cis women and trans women. We do of course also need to listen to people’s genuine concerns about safe spaces, particularly those who have been the victim of assault or abuse – but I think these concerns can, and should, be addressed in a sensitive way without discriminating against trans people.

I don’t think this subject can be adequately discussed and addressed on social media (or through the leaking of review recommendations, as happened last year). These discussions must be conducted on the basis of fact and respect, and Labour is committed to listening to women and to LGBT+ communities to ensure our policies protect and respect everyone’s rights. I want you to know that I am listening and that I take on board all perspectives on this issue, even if they differ from my own.

Any help in drafting a response? I want to include some stats about women Vs transwomen as victims of violent crime - anybody recall a good source?

The reply is quoting "Stonewall Law" which misrepresents the actual law.

In your reply state the equality act 2010 which specifically states women are lawfully entitled to a single sex service and trans people can be lawfully excluded from same sex spaces for not being the same sex.

Your MP is confused. Gender identity is not a protected characteristic like sex or gender reassignment. Therefore gender identity doesn’t entitle male bodied people to use female single sex spaces.

It is really sad to read that female victims in refuges must let male bodied people share their safe space. It shows no true understanding of the fears and needs of women in these refuges.

I was of the understanding that the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment means that an individual (without a GRC) cannot be treated less favourably than anyone else OF THE SAME SEX.
The gender reassignment bit does not trump sex in terms of equality. A person with the pc of gender reassignment does not have the right to access spaces for their 'acquired gender' although this has been misrepresented by Stonewall and the EHRC, hence Ann Sinnott's judicial review coming up.

It's all nonsense though.

There are zillions of genders. Which genders can use a womens refuge? Only those who have an internal self ID of woman?

So many woman who does not have a gender id or has over but it's not woman, can't use the refuge?

What about a female who presents as a woman but feels male inside? Can she use it?

How can they tell who is which? If it's something no one can see than anyone can say they're anything.

How do they feel about prisons and sports?

How do they feel about women and girls being called menstruators and ovulators while men and called men?

I mean it's all rubbish. You can't base law and rules and protocols on something invisible that anyone can claim and switch in and out of.

From my experience, an actual meeting with the MP is more useful, but it can be nerve wracking and unpleasant.

Write a reply with the law correctly stated, and why single sex spaces are lawful/needed. Arrange a meeting with them. It’s much harder to dismiss valid concerns face to face / zoom to zoom.

I believe the black TW statistic relates to South American sex workers, where murder rates are similar to prostituted women in these countries - where femicide in general is endemic. They do not relate to the UK where we have increased rate of killings of women in this country. Luckily, TW have very low rates of actual harm ignore the thought police formSo provide some accurate stats.

Remember the group in society most at risk of assault and killing are babies under one, so adults going on about how they are most at risk, and deflecting the needs of the most vulnerable is, in
my view, reprehensible.

Also, there was a thread on that mentioned this before.

Get her to detail her red lines -

-should rapists (needs a penis under English law) be incarcerated with women (often the most vulnerable)

• should victims of rape have the right to chose the sex of the medical examiner post rape

-should teenage girls have the right - as she did as a girl - to undress and get change away from male bodied adults.

• As in another thread - if a TM and a TW have a baby together, should the TW get the maternity leave and the TM get two weeks paternity?

A meeting with your MP (or Zoom call) seems a sensible suggestion, and especially given the comment about not adequately discussing it on social media.

I don't doubt the attacks on trans women- surely if you just call them women then you cannot get statistics or indeed if you just treat them as women and not recognise the difference, how can you deal with this and stop them?

Are you Bristol West, by any chance. An excellent MP, but she keeps her cards very close to her chest, publicly, on these issues. So, if it is her, this is interesting to hear.

@SunsetBeetch

Fucking hell what a load of ill-informed shite.

(Don't put that.)

Ummmm well... that was my first thought!

There's no such thing as 'cis' and how do we know which facilities this internal gender feeling bestows the right to use? I'm female bodied and use the women's toilets but do my internal feelings mean I'm in the wrong ones? Maybe I'll just piss myself, it's easier than trying to quantify it all.

Be blunt with your MP, she's there to serve not rule and needs telling straight how harmful and regressive this is imo.

UppityPuppity the point about babies under 1 being most at risk of assault and being killed is a good point when talking about who is most vulnerable. Do you know where we can get comparative stats?

Thanks

female victims in refuges must let male bodied people share their safe space

Female victims who are able to must.

Many of the most vulnerable female victims will not be able to be in refuges at all on those terms.

This involves excluding some females from any support, provision or resources to allow male people their preferred choice from all the provisions available.

That anyone can read that sentence without utter outrage at the gynephobia and the male supremacist values it has to be predicated on to exist at all, continues to stagger me. Unless you see people born with penises as inherently of much higher importance and value than those without, you cannot believe this is ok. That those who do will also often want to tell you all about how they don't believe in sex at the same time.... tells you how very little the brain has been engaged at all.

This reads almost word for word the same as my male labour MP. I didn't actually bother with follow up, as it was clear he was just copy and pasting a stock response tbh. And not even thinking, even slightly about the points I brought up.

Here you go.

learning.nspcc.org.uk/media/1652/statistics-briefing-child-deaths-abuse-neglect.pdf

P5-6 ‘children under one are the most likely to be killed by another person... 45 per million of population’ Eng and Wales

Estimates of transgender people = 200-500,000, (I had to google), and I believe - happily- there were no/very few murders of transgender people in England and Wales last year - please could someone correct me if I am wrong.

Therefore the under ones are 45 times more likely to be murdered than adults framed by your MP/Labour as the most vulnerable/at risk in society.

This is a disgrace - resources should be fully diverted/tailored to the reality of harms and risk in society.

And that statistic comes from an organisation that embraces transgender ideology, so cannot even be accused of anti-trans bias.

Apologies - I should have divided the 45 by 1/5 for the 200,000 figure and 1/2 for the 500,000 figure so the rate is per million - to enable a direct comparison. This would be UK based - not just Eng and Wales as per the under ones stat.

Other posters can comment/provide links for the rate for transpeople - which thankfully is very very low or nil last year.

I should have divided the 45 by 1/5 for the 200,000 figure and 1/2 for the 500,000 figure so the rate is per million

FFS...I really haven’t explained it well there either.

Times the Trans persons homicide stats by 5 for the 200,000 figure or by 2 for the 500,000 figure for a direct per million comparison. (UK)

So if where none last year - which is what everyone wants - in fact it would be 90 x times (2x45) the homicide rate for the under ones for the 500,000 figure and multiple that for the 200,000 figure.

Bloody hell - that’s is really shocking.

I think that is rights, someone else can correct if not. I am not going to correct myself again even if my calculations are in error.

Trans people, particularly trans women (and by extension, particularly black trans women) are especially vulnerable to being victims of violent crime and hate crime, and they, like everyone, must feel safe in bathrooms, changing rooms, and other facilities

I'd point out that in prisons natal males pose a risk to natal females- fpfw have references for this. And the people most vulnerable to being abused in prison are those who are the most marginalised, so people who are black or minority ethnic groups, and people with disabilities or trauma or severe mental illness or learning disabilities. (So it depends if she cares about those females)

He doesn’t care

@Sn0tnose

Indeed, under the Equality Act, trans people have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services.

I’m sorry to sound ignorant but I’m still learning. Is this correct? I know people holding a GRC are covered under the equality act, but isn’t the above simply self Id?

My understanding (tho I'm not legal) is: You have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment as soon as you intend to transition, even before you've done anything. Transition is changing physiological or any other attribute if sex so could be quite broad. The disagreement is on what circumstance having that p/c gives you access to services for the opposite sex. Is it a high bar to exclude a trans woman from female only space? Or is it legitimate in lots of everyday situations? The judicial review of ehrc guidence might force rulings on some of this.

It’s sounds like your MP has just copied that from Stonewall. Is it too much to ask they engage their brains and read around a subject a little? This one doesn’t even seem to know or understand the Equality Act.

Toilets are single sex. One’s ‘gender identity’ is irrelevant. Gay men are also at risk of violence. Do they use our toilets too? The women’s toilets are for females. They’re not a general effing shelter for anyone who wants it.

I also love the way the only balancing of rights involved is for women to give theirs away.

@Sn0tnose

Indeed, under the Equality Act, trans people have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services.

I’m sorry to sound ignorant but I’m still learning. Is this correct? I know people holding a GRC are covered under the equality act, but isn’t the above simply self Id?

hi Sn0tnose, no it is a complete misinterpretation. The pc of Gender Reassignment protects against discrimination for being in the process or transitioning (or transitioned) so someone can't be sacked or bullied or treated unfavourably for transitioning. It does not give the transitioner any rights of the opposite sex.

For example the comparator to determine discrimination for a transwoman (male) would be another male without the pc of Gender Reassignment for determining whether that other male would be allowed (or not) to do thing that transwoman wants to do.

So in the case of a transwoman hcp where the female client asked for a female hcp, the transwoman brought a discrimination case but the comparator would be another male so that male would have been treated the same as the transwoman ie. not allowed to visit that client. the Legal Feminist website is useful for more info on the legal stuff.

The EA 2010 (the bit preventing discrimination on grounds of sex) has exceptions allowing discrimination on grounds of sex in certain cases ie. all rape shelters, all places where women will be undressed or sleeping, hospital wards etc. breastfeeding groups etc.

In the case of those exceptions, it is lawful to exlude all males (regardless of GRC) from those places/services. Having a GRC makes it a little harder but still allows exclusion.

Many orgs have been lied to by Stonewall in their training and the captured EHRC with the information your MP has. It is not correct and this was clarified by Liz Truss last year but many organisations are still claiming a lack of clarity and using that to argue that it is based on gender id and single sex facilities are open to all. The government needs to crack down on this hard.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

Trans people, particularly trans women (and by extension, particularly black trans women) are especially vulnerable to being victims of violent crime and hate crime, and they, like everyone, must feel safe in bathrooms, changing rooms, and other facilities

I'd point out that in prisons natal males pose a risk to natal females- fpfw have references for this. And the people most vulnerable to being abused in prison are those who are the most marginalised, so people who are black or minority ethnic groups, and people with disabilities or trauma or severe mental illness or learning disabilities. (So it depends if she cares about those females)

maybe ask what evidence the MP has for tw being at any greater risk of violence in the men's facilities than other vulnerable male groups like teen boys or small gay men (for want of a better description). So far I am not seeing any evidence that they are at greater risk at all, in fact stats are starting to show that they are at less risk than most of the population. Maybe that's why they reclassified words as literal violence?

@SunsetBeetch

Fucking hell what a load of ill-informed shite.

(Don't put that.)

LOL!

Well I wouldn't waste any time being polite to someone who has just done a cut and paste job and not bothered to reply to your points.

I would just reply and say they have been misinformed about the EA, violence against TW, and so on.*

Can she please reply after she has done her research by replying with correct information, and if not you will just have to conclude that the Labour Party no longer values Women's Rights.

• www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

I'd start with sarcastic politeness:
"Thank you for taking the time to copy and paste a response."

I would then go on to ask her to evidence some of her wacky claims.