Double Standards re Female Oppression.

[FishinthePerculator]

Not for the first time, I’m struggling to understand the blue-haired, woke individual in my life. A few days ago, she was all over the Jackie Weaver stuff on social media, posting about sexism and misogyny and (rightly) raging about the way those men spoke to JW, leading to a discussion among her female friends and followers about times they had been spoken over, spoken to rudely, side-lined and disrespected by men.

Today, she’s posting about transphobia at machine-gun speed. One of her posts confidently states that no “Cis-person” can claim discrimination nor oppression. This has been cheered on by an amazingly high number of people.

I’m agog at the lack of self-awareness. Surely she can see the link between these two posts. JW was discriminated and oppressed (or at least they attempted it) because she is a woman. All the commentators giving their own experiences are evidencing that women are victims of oppression. Look at what is happening in Poland – women, biological women, are being oppressed. Women have been oppressed throughout history and it is still happening all over the world, in countries where girls are seen as burdens on their families, are denied education, are forced into FGM, being child-brides, raped as a weapon of war. Yet pointing out this kind of thing is seen as transphobic.

She’s married to someone I love dearly and he has absolutely drunk her kool-aid. I usually stay quiet, no matter how infuriated I am at her opinions. To deviate is to be a transphobe or a T* and means automatic blocking in all walks of life and I can’t lose the person I love. So I’m venting here for a sanity check.

'One of her posts confidently states that no “Cis-person” can claim discrimination nor oppression.'

Not women in Saudi?
Not black people in USA?
Not the Uighur people in China?
I mean I could go on forever.

Is she just stupid? I don't get it.

It saddens me that so many people just believe whatever they're told, and don't use critical thinking skills.

What has she actually put?

I can't believe that anyone believes that no 'cis' person in the world can be oppressed or discriminated against.

I mean that's just fucking stupid.

It really is!

That is so ridiculous it is OK for you to snort with laughter instead of getting angry. Find the funny bone.

Is she a cokehead? Sounds a bit like it.

I'm surprised she hasn't called you out for your silence.

Come on You do need to speak up but just do it with love

@NiceGerbil

What has she actually put?

I can't believe that anyone believes that no 'cis' person in the world can be oppressed or discriminated against.

I mean that's just fucking stupid.

Yep

Fucking stupid, there’s no other phrase for it

@FishinthePerculator

Not for the first time, I’m struggling to understand the blue-haired, woke individual in my life. A few days ago, she was all over the Jackie Weaver stuff on social media, posting about sexism and misogyny and (rightly) raging about the way those men spoke to JW, leading to a discussion among her female friends and followers about times they had been spoken over, spoken to rudely, side-lined and disrespected by men.

Today, she’s posting about transphobia at machine-gun speed. One of her posts confidently states that no “Cis-person” can claim discrimination nor oppression. This has been cheered on by an amazingly high number of people.

I’m agog at the lack of self-awareness. Surely she can see the link between these two posts. JW was discriminated and oppressed (or at least they attempted it) because she is a woman. All the commentators giving their own experiences are evidencing that women are victims of oppression. Look at what is happening in Poland – women, biological women, are being oppressed. Women have been oppressed throughout history and it is still happening all over the world, in countries where girls are seen as burdens on their families, are denied education, are forced into FGM, being child-brides, raped as a weapon of war. Yet pointing out this kind of thing is seen as transphobic.

She’s married to someone I love dearly and he has absolutely drunk her kool-aid. I usually stay quiet, no matter how infuriated I am at her opinions. To deviate is to be a transphobe or a T* and means automatic blocking in all walks of life and I can’t lose the person I love. So I’m venting here for a sanity check.

I have a friend like this. Infuriating

So many companies still consider "diversity hiring" to be women. There are initiatives to get more female board members and senior hires. This is the UK. And women are so discriminated against they need special projects to bring them on board!

🙄🙄 how are women not discriminated against?! And obviously that's not counting domestic violence, rape, FGM, child brides and all the other vile things that's happen to women because of their sex.

Not women in Saudi?
Not black people in USA?
Not the Uighur people in China?

Could you not put ⬆️ as a reply? Maybe adding ‘Not Jackie Weaver?’ She’s either going to have to acknowledge that she was wrong, or that she didn’t really mean what she said in her previous post. And there’s nothing there that she could argue with.

Twit.

The 'protected characteristics' describe the types of discrimination which occur. That's why they all need explicit protection.

You don't have to have all of them, or any particular one to suffer discrimination. Intersectionality means that some people may suffer a double or triple or more dose of discrimination. It doesn't for one moment that you can deny that it happens to people who only have one factor against them, or don't have some particular characteristic which you deem more important.

Such psychological fragility.......

I read a book last year called ' The Coddling of the American Mind' ( How good intentions & bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure)

"......The authors, Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt, argue that many of these students lack the emotional armoury to handle free enquiry and are genuinely being ‘triggered’. The culture of safe spaces and no-platforming is a response to a generation that has been driven towards mental illness by over-protection"

"Lukianoff and Haidt put it less bluntly than this but mental illness is what it amounts to. The peculiar combination of extreme hyper-sensitivity and aggression exhibited in some of the notorious campus videos suggests that we are dealing with people who are not entirely well. Lukianoff and Haidt argue that a large number of young people have been brought up in an over-protected environment, with too little unsupervised play as children and siloed in the echo chambers of social media as teenagers. At university, they see themselves less as students and more as customers, making demands of administrators who are all too willing to capitulate to their whims. Rules are designed to suit the most sensitive members of the community – or those who complain the loudest...."

I thought about this kind of thing a while ago. I concluded that a lot of young women are absolutely stupid, and willing to have their identity erased without any consideration of what this might mean for female-born in the future. I also reflected that as I'm in my sixties, I'll die soon (I've read 'woke' people crowing that their opponents are not long for this world) and so I might just as well keep quiet and wait to die. That's my plan.

read a book last year called ' The Coddling of the American Mind' ( How good intentions & bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure)

I've read the long form article in The Atlantic magazine. Very good.

Same narrative as those who push white women as the oppressors.

Is she just stupid?

I thought that was the reason for the blue hair - a thoughtful consideration on their part so that the rest of us can avoid them.

@prisencolinensinainciusol2

Is she just stupid?

I thought that was the reason for the blue hair - a thoughtful consideration on their part so that the rest of us can avoid them.

There is an enlightening Twitter post shared by Gardenbird48 on the AIBU about midwives told to stop using terms such as breastfeeding at 10:58 this morning.

It explains how people can be pushed little by little to illogical or extreme views.

Justhadathought, I think that 'customers' point is key to a lot of what is happening. With student loans and everything students are a goldmine, expensive student housing springing up all over city centres and a big night-time economy based around their new spending power. It seems to have really shifted the dynamic and made adults stop 'adulting', universities seem scared to challenge the students' beliefs and demands in case they take their money away.

@NiceGerbil

'One of her posts confidently states that no “Cis-person” can claim discrimination nor oppression.'

Not women in Saudi?
Not black people in USA?
Not the Uighur people in China?
I mean I could go on forever.

Is she just stupid? I don't get it.

And none of the people doing the oppressing will have given a moment's thought to the gender identity of the people involved.

@Hailtomyteeth

I thought about this kind of thing a while ago. I concluded that a lot of young women are absolutely stupid, and willing to have their identity erased without any consideration of what this might mean for female-born in the future. I also reflected that as I'm in my sixties, I'll die soon (I've read 'woke' people crowing that their opponents are not long for this world) and so I might just as well keep quiet and wait to die. That's my plan.

I don't think they are stupid. I think they are in denial.

If you look at the current news reports on how Charisma Carpenter was treated by Joss Whedon when she was pregnant, it becomes obvious why somebody like Emma Watson might like to pretend that sex is a spectrum, 'woman' is just a frame of mind etc. etc.

I'm very disappointed about Joss wheedon. I enjoyed most of his shows, and felt they were very aware of women- lots of feminist storylines, imo. So disappointing that he's yet another jerk.

I've tried to go back to the post today to get a direct quote but she seems to have deleted it. I know that sounds very convenient but I promise this was genuine (I'm a serial name changer and mainly lurk rather than post but have been on MN for over 10 years and have been frequenting these boards as a GC feminist for a long time).

Anyway, the post was something like "It makes me so mad when cis people claim to be oppressed. They don't know the first thing about what our trans and non-binary brothers and sisters go through" Then, a few posts down from that "no cis person is a victim of discrimination or oppression. FACT".

The last I saw, she was being called out by someone (her posts are very public so she often argues with complete strangers. I think a lot of "real-life" friends and family stay noticeably quiet) and was responding to this by calling the other woman "Karen" and telling her that her "transphobia" makes her less than human. I'm guessing though that some criticism landed, hence the deletion of the post rather than, you know, actually apologising and conceding to a different point of view.

I actually don't spend a lot of time on social media and I have no desire to start hashing out a war or words with her on those platforms. I do find it hard to respond when these discussions come up in person though (thankfully not had to worry about that for 11 months). Usually I agree wholeheartedly that transphobia is awful as is any type of discrimination and that nobody should live in fear of their lives just because of who they are, usually then flipping it around to say something like "it makes me think of the bravery of someone like Malala" and turning the conversation to sex-based discrimination without overtly making a thing of it. Wide-eyed innocence goes down well too, as do references to marches I attended in the 90s (before she was born) in support of LGB (I honestly can't remember if there was a T back then) rights.

I need to read the book/article referenced upthread. Interestingly her posts yesterday have peaked DH who, until now has vaguely agreed with me but not really understood why I am so passionate about it and why I get so wound up when this person voices these opinions. He was equally perplexed and incensed by the suggestion that biological women cannot claim any type of discrimination and was spluttering about pay-gaps, FGM, one-child policies, child-brides etc. Anyway, as part of a long conversation about this over cooking and washing up, we were both talking about exactly this - the problem with safe-spaces and education as a consumer product and how this has raised a generation of young people raised in an echo chamber, unable to cope with the art of debate and discussion.

Tbh, I’ve reached the point of just sitting back and watching. It’s all going to crash and burn horribly at some future point.