More visibility for 'kink' - this is so disturbing.

[Novina]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/feb/09/kink-anthology-book-fear-shame

"In the meantime, despite its increasing visibility on social media and dating apps, kink is still generally thought to be unfit for the public eye. Unfit for children, especially, as in the recurring argument that kinky attire should not be visible at Pride parades, which echoes the old, bad argument that any signs of queerness should be kept out of sight of minors. But consider what it might do to a person, whether child or adult, to primarily see one’s sexual desires represented in the flattened form of a punchline or stock villain. To see and hear, in the books and shows and movies that can constitute much of our experience of the world, that one either doesn’t exist, or shouldn’t."

The 'k' are borrowing language from the lgb to push for more visibility, even wrt children.

Honestly, do what you like - with, or without, consenting adults in private - I don't care. But I do not consent to being part of it if you bring it into public life. This determination to get children involved, as if it's good for them, is a huge red flag.

This is one reason I can't stand the queer theory approach of blurring, or transgressing, boundaries. Yes, some boundaries have been bad and needed challenging, but others are there for very good reasons.

@MichelleofzeResistance "They want endless respect and kindness and indulgence and never being made to feel bad for behaving badly, but extend no respect or kindness or the slightest care for those they wish to make use of." You are (as usual!) spot on.

I think that women saying they like "rough sex" may well be talking about WILDLY different scenarios - for example, a light slap on the bottom, getting playfully "thrown" onto the bed, maybe hair getting grabbed - that would all go into the "rough" category for me and lots of women but would be regarded as totally vanilla by others. So someone might say they liked rough sex, meaning basically some fun rough-and-tumble, but not knowing that someone else meant stuff that actually involved choking, serious pain etc.

If the shame is removed, is it still a kink? I thought a large part of it being exciting is that it's taboo.

I don't really think these people want the shame removed, they're probably exhibitionists who like having it out in the open.

I don't really think these people want the shame removed, they're probably exhibitionists who like having it out in the open.

Yes. A percentage are exhibitionists for whom the sexual kink is unwillingly drawing innocent bystanders into their sexual fetish - which is a clear and obvious violation of the bystanders' sexual boundaries and consent.

And a percentage, as noted upthread, are flat-out paedophiles using this as a Trojan horse in their campaign to get paedophilia into the mainstream.

(Will be interested to see if this post stands - I note that a few upthread have been deleted, and I don't remember anything in any way contentious about them, so I suspect we are being very closely watched by people who really don't want their underlying motivations exposed and discussed in public. They want an enthusiastic audience going "yay, kink, the last civil rights issue to be brought into the mainstream" and not a critical audience going "but your kink seems to be precisely the violation of other people's consent.")

I read this this morning.
I think the guardian is just trolling us now.

Unfit for children, especially, as in the recurring argument that kinky attire should not be visible at Pride parades

But consider what it might do to a person, whether child or adult, to primarily see one’s sexual desires represented in the flattened form of a punchline or stock villain

Reminds of that hideous individual who said that all young girls were kinky . Do children really have kinky sexual desires?

Did the author of this piece really mean to say those quoted sections out loud

Added this is a separate post to avoid entire post deletion:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3318615-Pedophile-Manifesto

I’m quite curious how the Guardian would view more visibility for kinks that involve say; Nazi or Colonial master and slave fantasy?

Do you get a free pass if it’s a kink?

I have a friend who likes kinky sex. I only know this because we've known each other for a long time and are good friends. She doesn't advertise it.
I know she takes major issue with children being brought into pro-kink arguments. For her, kink is for adults. It's not for teens just starting to explore their sexuality. It's something to be done only with people you trust and connect with. It's not really for one-night stands for the same reason.

It's not an orientation either. Many kinky types enjoy more "traditional" sex either some or most of the time. Kink is for when you both really fancy it. If you can't enjoy yourself properly without taking really extreme measures, that's not good either.

I'm also familiar with kink-bores who consider themselves superior sexual beings and far more sophisticated that everyone else. Surely only being able to orgasm when in serious pain or in the early stages of asphyxia is sexual dysfunction? I think they are a little bit jealous of people to whom sexual pleasure comes in a more easy and straightforward way.

Ffs, I do not give one solitary bollock what you like to stick up your jacksie or attach to your nipples to give you an extra naughty tingle. I just don't need to know. No one needs to know what you or I do for sex jollies except the consenting adults we are doing it with.

I propose a new slogan to be carried on a banner at Pride parades for those of us in the LGB who are sick and tired of being reduced to sex objects by being lumped in with spicy straights who don't seem to understand boundaries.:

That's nice, dear, now put it away.

And I agree latching Q and K onto LGB does nothing for LGB

They are taking advantage and latching on the the 'T'. Hence the need for the LGB alliance.

The people who are comfortable with their own bodies, comfortable with being straight or bi or gay, who love giving and receiving orgasms with a partner who is enthusiastically consenting, I think they are the "sex positive ones"

I think this is 100% spot on !

And I’m not sure that the current trend of encouraging people to have sex with all and sundry is a good thing, I think women and men need to be choosey with who they exchange bodily fluids with, the foundation of a healthy sex life is mutual respect.

I find the whole thing utterly bizarre. As someone said upthread, do what you like behind closed doors, as long as it's not illegal, or anti social, but I don't want to see you doing it, thanks very much. And neither do my kids.

This constant push for 'normalising' of frankly inappropriate stuff, is bloody exhausting. And I consider myself pretty left wing and liberal.

Proponents of Blanchard's autogynephilia theory, of whom there are several on mumsnet, sadly do.

Oops sorry was responding to this

Do children really have kinky sexual desires?

I never cease to be amazed at some of the lengths some people on here will go to in order to defend the indefensible.

You'd think they might have enough self-awareness to realise there are some topics where it's actually better for their cause to shut the fuck up and not draw further attention to "saying the quiet bits loud."

But no, apparently some people are entirely lacking in self awareness.

Still, it can be quite useful.

Oh JJ you are misrepresenting Blanchard's theory. But I'm not in the mood for clown dancing.

It's not an orientation either. Many kinky types enjoy more "traditional" sex either some or most of the time. Kink is for when you both really fancy it. If you can't enjoy yourself properly without taking really extreme measures, that's not good either
Technically if you don't "need" it to achieve arousal orgasm it's a kink. If it's required every time, it's a fetish.
Kinky people are tedious, fetishists are potentially dangerous. Generally.

That photograph of children in a "puppy fetish" tent at Pride (where the men had visible hard ons) is one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen. Innocent children, thinking it was just for fun.

Dirty nonces.

@dolorsit

Oh JJ you are misrepresenting Blanchard's theory. But I'm not in the mood for clown dancing.

Nonhomosexual MtF transsexuals often report that their desire to be femalebegan early in childhood, well before the onset of puberty (Lawrence 2003,2006). They frequently interpret this to mean that their desire therefore cannotbe sexual. There is evidence, however, that both erotic desire and affectionalbonding can develop in early childhood. It seems plausible that children inwhom these erotic-romantic feelings were directed partly or wholly toward theself would experience the desire to become what they loved during childhood.There are two case reports of boys younger than age three who expressed adesire to wear cross-sex clothing and who experienced penile erections whenthey did so (Stoller 1985; Zucker and Blanchard 1997).These boys plausibly dis-played an early form of autogynephilic arousal.

Autognephilia proponent Anne Lawrence is very clear in her paper Becoming What We Love, and her sentiments are endorsed by Blanchard.

I never cease to be amazed at some of the lengths some people on here will go to in order to defend the indefensible.

I agree. I think those who claim trans children are enacting a sexual paraphilia are disgusting, but sadly it's a very important part of autogynephilia theory which has wide support on here.

Anyway not really interested in this thread, just pointing out what some people seem happy to endorse when it suits them.

@CaraDuneRedux

I never cease to be amazed at some of the lengths some people on here will go to in order to defend the indefensible.

You'd think they might have enough self-awareness to realise there are some topics where it's actually better for their cause to shut the fuck up and not draw further attention to "saying the quiet bits loud."

But no, apparently some people are entirely lacking in self awareness.

Still, it can be quite useful.

Indeed

@Iveputmyselfonthenaughtystep

Nononononono. I am kinky. I am part of the scene. The whole moral ETHOS of kink is 'safe, sane, consensual'. This means you do NOT involve others in your kink in any way unless they explicitly consent. You don't discuss it with them unless they ask, you don't flaunt fetishes or fetishised clothing in front of them unless they are in a kinky space/ have asked to see. Showing people sexualised things that they have not asked to see is non consensual and goes against the values of every person involved in the kink/BDSM scene.

Anybody espousing this is just an old fashioned pervert or child abuser. Fuck them. They do not speak for me.

I second this. Kink is a big part of my life but I read this article and thought 'hell no'. Firstly, I've never been shamed for it. I don't think genuine kinkshaming is that common at all. Most people don't give a shit what weird stuff you get up to as long as its fully consensual. Most of the time I've seen someone complain about being 'kinkshamed', it's because they've been behaving inappropriately sexually and someone's called them out for it. And secondly, I completely agree with the comments from Iveputmyselfonthenaughtstep above. Making your kink public is not consensual behaviour. I had kinky feelings and inclinations as a teenager but no way was I even close to mature enough to be able to put the right kind of boundaries in place or have the confidence and experience to recognise red flags. That only came with age and maturity. Adults trying to normalise kink with teenagers and encouraging them to explore under the guise of sex education is an absolute avalanche of red flags. These people don't speak for me either.

Technically if you don't "need" it to achieve arousal orgasm it's a kink. If it's required every time, it's a fetish.

Well, I did not know that. You really do learn something new every day.

"kink is still generally thought to be unfit for the public eye. Unfit for children"

Oh there we go again... Dipping their toe in the water to see what how the temperature is today.

Seems to be a little push going on in this area right now; people testing if the current climate allows them to say it without a backlash. If it does, they'll move forward, inch-by-inch...

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

* Do children really have kinky sexual desires?*

Children have pre-sexual arousal to all sorts of things. They just don't understand it yet. Often adult arousal, kink and fetishes are formed in childhood experiences.

That doesn't mean sex, kink and fetish should go within a million miles of a child. Children should be free to develop and form their sexuality and sexual preferences naturally. Any adult who thinks kids need to know about this stuff is a damned pervert.