Page 4 | To wonder why trans/non-binary can’t be a third gender?

Justhadathought · 08/02/2021 20:34

I support trans rights but not when they undermine the rights/identify/safety of women. Just wondering if there is an other solution

Third spaces.

Everyone already has equal rights in law now - certainly in the U.K. what they don't have is the right to colonise the space of another group for their own purpose.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 08/02/2021 21:05

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 09/02/2021 16:26

Trans' is an ideological belief about the nature of men and women. One which I reject as firmly as I reject the idea that one 'race' is superior, or that wives should submit to husbands. I find the very principles it rests upon to allow a person to believe anyone can 'be trans' are sexist. Offensive beliefs come in all shapes, severities and sizes, some are obviously insidious and others not immediately so.

I think once a person has concluded that they reject the entire foundational belief that male people can be 'female inside', it's fair to understand that they will judge every person who holds that offensive belief similarly.

Exactly. Brilliantly put, as always, Barracker.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 09/02/2021 16:49

Adopting difficult pronouns just feels like a way for rather sad people to force others to give them a level of mental and emotional labour they’re really not entitled to. Someone can tell me their pronouns are xi/xir when we meet, but if I don’t see them again for six months they’re lucky if I can remember their name, let alone their fantasy pronouns. ...

There’s a glaring narcissism in manufacturing a situation that will inevitably lead to future opportunities to put on a performance of hurt and upset at some poor saps expense. Add to that that NB doesn’t do anything to challenge gender norms, as claimed, but like nearly all trans ideology, only reinforces them.

I meant to highlight a sentence from your comment, Vermeil, but ended up copying practically the whole thing. You've hit so many nails on the head there.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 09/02/2021 16:59

MissBarbary, there is no evidence that transwomen commit less crime than non-trans men. There is plenty of evidence that they commit as much crime as non-trans men. Importantly, half of all transwomen in jail are sex offenders -- that's very much higher than the average for non-trans male prisoners.

Fair Play for Women has a useful analysis: fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

For numerous examples, see transcrimeuk.com

This simple fact explains why women are as wary of transwomen as of non-trans men. We are right to be wary.

MissBarbary · 09/02/2021 17:07

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

MissBarbary, there is no evidence that transwomen commit less crime than non-trans men. There is plenty of evidence that they commit as much crime as non-trans men. Importantly, half of all transwomen in jail are sex offenders -- that's very much higher than the average for non-trans male prisoners.

Fair Play for Women has a useful analysis: fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

For numerous examples, see transcrimeuk.com

This simple fact explains why women are as wary of transwomen as of non-trans men. We are right to be wary.

I'm not sure what the lecture is for as I didn't make the points you are refuting.

My point is if you (general you "gender critical" feminists) can't see what is wrong with damning all trans people for the actions of one then you , general you, can't be surprised when you are accused of being transphobic.

Schmoana · 09/02/2021 17:15

Sorry haven’t rtft. But this might be a good solution. Gents and ladies and “gender non specific” for loos and prisons etc. Actuarial factors used for insurance and pensions would need to adjust for “gender non specific” customers. Men would not have automatic access to female spaces. I like it!

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 09/02/2021 17:26

My point is if you (general you "gender critical" feminists) can't see what is wrong with damning all trans people for the actions of one then you , general you, can't be surprised when you are accused of being transphobic.

NATPALT?

Seriously?

334bu · 09/02/2021 18:06

My point is if you (general you "gender critical" feminists) can't see what is wrong with damning all trans people for the actions of one then you , general you, can't be surprised when you are accused of being transphobic.*

So when we exclude males from female safe spaces because some males are violent towards women are we damning them all for the actions of some and should we not be surprised if we are accused of being malephobic?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 09/02/2021 18:41

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Adopting difficult pronouns just feels like a way for rather sad people to force others to give them a level of mental and emotional labour they’re really not entitled to. Someone can tell me their pronouns are xi/xir when we meet, but if I don’t see them again for six months they’re lucky if I can remember their name, let alone their fantasy pronouns. ...

There’s a glaring narcissism in manufacturing a situation that will inevitably lead to future opportunities to put on a performance of hurt and upset at some poor saps expense. Add to that that NB doesn’t do anything to challenge gender norms, as claimed, but like nearly all trans ideology, only reinforces them.

I meant to highlight a sentence from your comment, Vermeil, but ended up copying practically the whole thing. You've hit so many nails on the head there.

Agreed.

notyourhandmaid · 09/02/2021 19:48

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Original poster

Imworthit · 10/02/2021 08:57

For clarity I said the person I met tainted my view, as all bad experiences do. I didn’t say whatsoever that I base my entire outlook on one bad experience under any circumstance.

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Imworthit · 10/02/2021 09:23

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Original poster

Imworthit · 10/02/2021 09:32

It’s more akin to discovering Jihadi among Muslims,when you’ve had nothing but positive experiences. Do I think we should mistreat Muslims for that? Of course not but it would be foolish to ignore the dangerous element just to avoid being called racist.

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Original poster

Imworthit · 10/02/2021 09:49

After looking it up I can see that ‘tainted’ definitely has a stronger negative meaning than I intended.

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Justhadathought · 10/02/2021 10:01

My point is if you (general you "gender critical" feminists) can't see what is wrong with damning all trans people for the actions of one then you , general you, can't be surprised when you are accused of being transphobic

It is not about " damning all transpeople" but about recognising the reasons we have single sex spaces in the first place, and how that is really a common sense, and most realistic measure of safeguarding.

Third spaces and sports are the way forward, if people are really looking to put their campaigning zeal into a useful pursuit.

Original poster

Imworthit · 10/02/2021 10:03

That said, prior to some serious counselling, the fear of being branded bigoted or insensitive, would have kept me in contact with that extremely dangerous ‘individual’ and I think for that reason it’s important that womens experiences aren’t just shut down.

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prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 10/02/2021 10:47

There’s a glaring narcissism in manufacturing a situation that will inevitably lead to future opportunities to put on a performance of hurt and upset at some poor saps expense. Add to that that NB doesn’t do anything to challenge gender norms, as claimed, but like nearly all trans ideology, only reinforces them.

I keep thinking about this. It's so true isn't it? (especially that last sentence.)

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 10/02/2021 10:48

@Imworthit

For clarity I said the person I met tainted my view, as all bad experiences do. I didn’t say whatsoever that I base my entire outlook on one bad experience under any circumstance.

I understood perfectly what you were saying.

SarahGoode · 10/02/2021 10:51

I think most trans people have internalised transphobia. They don't want to be trans- they want to be the opposite sex. And so, in a bid to convince themselves that they are, they try to convince everyone else. The cognitive dissonance rings loudly and so they double down

Original poster

Imworthit · 10/02/2021 10:53

It was just for those who didn’t 😁

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Nellodee · 10/02/2021 14:37

Non-binary annoys me on a mathematical level. It's like a 2 saying I am non-binary. Well of course not Mx.2, you're at the very least part of a ternary, and so are all the other numbers in your system, even the 1s and 0s. A system can be non-binary. A single digit from a binary system is called a bit. A single digit from a tertiary system is not called a non-binary, it's called a trit. If a trit exists, then the 1s and 0s in that system are trits as well as the 2s. If anyone is non-binary, then everyone is non-binary.

I know I shouldn't be irked and am missing the point.

ArdynLucisCaelum · 10/02/2021 15:12

To me it's the same reason why a lot of them won't accept a third space instead of demanding access to women's spaces - it doesn't give them the validation they crave. 🤷🏼‍♀️

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/02/2021 21:08

@Nellodee

Non-binary annoys me on a mathematical level. It's like a 2 saying I am non-binary. Well of course not Mx.2, you're at the very least part of a ternary, and so are all the other numbers in your system, even the 1s and 0s. A system can be non-binary. A single digit from a binary system is called a bit. A single digit from a tertiary system is not called a non-binary, it's called a trit. If a trit exists, then the 1s and 0s in that system are trits as well as the 2s. If anyone is non-binary, then everyone is non-binary.

I know I shouldn't be irked and am missing the point.

I love this, and actually don’t think you’re missing the point at all. It’s a great explanation for those of us who don’t usually speak maths!

If anyone is non-binary, then everyone is non-binary. You’ve nailed it.

Thank you!

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/02/2021 21:10

@Imworthit

That said, prior to some serious counselling, the fear of being branded bigoted or insensitive, would have kept me in contact with that extremely dangerous ‘individual’ and I think for that reason it’s important that womens experiences aren’t just shut down.

This is such an important point, and one that male people who aren’t interested in listening to women are keen to ignore or deny.

That female socialisation has so many ramifications.