To wonder why trans/non-binary can’t be a third gender?

[Imworthit]

Basically that. I’m not trying to be offensive I’m genuinely curious. Would like to understand both points of view on this?

I support trans rights but not when they undermine the rights/identify/safety of women. Just wondering if there is an other solution.

I support trans rights but not when they undermine the rights/identify/safety of women. Just wondering if there is an other solution.

That is the very starting point for every woman they scream 'T*rf' at. The undermining of women's rights and safety will be denied, any other solution is unacceptable, and you are a monster for even considering it. Welcome to the tribe.

I count myself among the doubtless many who went along initially with TWAW, out of what I thought was kindness and not wanting to be rude. But when you really see what's happening, who's behind the push, it's just not possible anymore.

I walked away from 2 forums I had posted on for 5+ years because of the inescapable capture. Debates shut down, opinions not allowed.

Because they are not genders. Gender is assigned in the womb - male or female. What you feel you identify as may be a whole different thing from what gender you biologically are.

@OldCrone

In other cultures Mtf transgender people (eg Kathoey in Thailand, Hijras in India) are considered a third gender. Many even have legal definition status. It's worked since forever and everyone's basically happy.

Wasn't this just a way of accomodating gay men in a homophobic society? I don't think this is an acceptable template for a modern society - to pretend that gay men are not really men but are some sort of 'third gender'.

Well it's miles better than our current mass social experiment, that is to say these men are the absolute same as women and are therefore to be accommodated in every women's space feminists ever fought for.

To wonder why trans/non-binary can’t be a third gender?

I'm not sure I understand the question, to be honest.

Transpeople don't want to be a third sex, they want to be considered / regarded / treated as their trans sex.

Non-binary is something different - according to the BBC, there are 100 genders (though I have seen claims that the number is actually 156). There would be an outcry if gender were limited to only three.

And this is why it is necessary to distinguish between sex and gender - it is not semantics but a biological versus cultural distinction.

I want to focus on ensuring that women are protected, especially in certain historically women only spaces, and that women's sport is a fair competition.

Gender/sex I’m not so bothered about the semantics or biology

You'll need to be if you want to understand any of this.

Otherwise it's like walking into a convention of astrophysicists and announcing "astrology/astronomy, I'm not bothered about the semantics or science, I'm just wondering why my pisces horoscope this week can't give me the same prediction as Capricorn, because we can both see the same stars, amirite?"

Sex and gender are as different as astronomy and astrology. They both use the same terminology for stars. But the first is a science, and the second is pure woo.

Your question: "Why can't they be a third gender?"
Is like asking physicists
"Why can't you create a different horoscope for people who don't believe in planets?"

Gender is assigned in the womb - male or female.

Gender is not "assigned" in the womb. Sex is determined by biology. Gender is created by culture.

In other cultures Mtf transgender people (eg Kathoey in Thailand, Hijras in India) are considered a third gender.

There are rarer instances of FtM transgender people recognised in cultures (rather than individual instances).

Possibly the most famous are the 'honorary' men in Albania. These are women who, generally due to a lack of male relatives, take on a male role within a family. They dress as males and have the rights men are allowed within a traditional society.

These women are, for the most part, middle-aged or elderly as the tradition is dying out.

Hijras in India

I was once at a party (not in the UK) where one of the guests was a hijra. I was the only woman at the party (the other guests were my husband and gay men - long story). The hijra, Ashok, singled me out for attention, which made me very uncomfortable. (I have autism and being the centre of attention is not something I enjoy.)

I wish we could move away from the concept of gender fullstop. What’s the point of it?

There happen to be two biological sex categories: xx and xy, and we use male and female to denote them. They mostly matter in health and in legal or other spheres where biology makes a different (ie sport).

How people choose to present themselves, I couldn’t care less. Wear dresses or like football or whatever floats your boat, that’s just all personal preference. We need to work towards a world where bullying for that sort of thing is stamped out.

You can’t change your biological category, cos chromosomes. But it shouldn’t affect how you express yourself. Gender stereotyping is such a backward step.

If you were caught short at work, who would you ask for a tampon? Male Dave, who has the same religion as you, or female Yasmin, who has a different religion to you?

I agree it’s backwards, the whole thing seems backwards.

Don't really understand question as you'd have to define what gender is. If f you mean third sex well no because there are only two human sexes. Also suggesting to transwomen that they were not actual women would be considered to be transphobic and a literal act of violence.

@BlackForestCake

People can claim whatever "gender" they want, I don't care any more than I care about their star sign or their feng shui energy.

What they can't do is dismantle sex segregation where it exists for good reason.

I love this

Only a third gender? I thought there were 600 of those.

Yeah I clearly didn’t understand the question I was trying to ask either 😂

I now know that sex & gender are two different things. I would use them interchangeably but I now know that I meant sex.

Also suggesting to transwomen that they were not actual women would be considered to be transphobic and a literal act of violence.

Fuck that for a kettle of fish thats what’s not always safe. I’m not going to purposely hurt anyone, or bring it up at all if it doesn’t impinge on women’s safety but apparently I’m transphobic and ok with that.

There shouldn't need to be a 'third gender', because gender is either synonymous with sex, or it is nothing but a bunch of stereotypes. There are two sexes. Designating people as a particular 'gender' based on their personality, dress sense, or whether olthey like needlework or trucks or fancy the idea of pretending they menstruate or whatever - that just shouldn't even be a thing.

My issue with gender being the crucial category, is that it's apparently: fluid, discernible only to the individual themselves, and is entirely undefined/unrecognisable.

Someone may wear jeans, or lipstick, have hair long or short, work as an astronaut or a midwife- none of which accurately signifies their gender. It's so nebulous, a combination of various markers (lipstick, long hair and a handbag- but they are wearing trainers?!)

Sex is pretty clear and definitive. It has implications. There are vanishingly few people whose sex is not easily discernible- a very small number of them have a sex differentiation disorder, which is a medical issue usually requiring treatment.

I am happy to accept people as whatever gender they wish to tell me they are. I'm not terribly interested. They can present however they like. It's like being goth, emo or punk. We don't collect statistics on the oppression of Goths, punks, emos...

Their sex however matters- it matters medically, it matters in statistics, it matters in prisons, changing rooms.

Gender stereotyping is such a backward step

Isn’t it just! But it seems to be the basis of much of Gender Ideology. It’s a shockingly regressive and conservative trend that astounds me. Why on Earth are we promoting such ridiculous stereotypes? This is 2021.

I admit I find NB annoying. We’re all “non binary” as none of us fulfil all the stereotypes associated with our sex. IMO, it’s a stupid, unnecessary label. It’s also rather rude and presumptive: “I’m special because I don’t fulfil all the sex stereotypes associated with my sex but all the rest of you do”. No, we don’t, love. We’re just not narcissistic or immature enough to think it needs a silly label.

So no, I don’t think there should be a third ‘gender’ (ie sex). We all have a bio sex. That bio sex shouldn’t dictate what job we do or what we wear, or whether we cry at sad films, or are good at DIY, or are brave, or are caring.

Sex and gender are as different as astronomy and astrology.

The perfect analogy! Thanks Barracker, I’ll be using that.

Any number of genders is fine with me, as gender is an expression of femininity or masculinity. There are only two biological sexes.

I wish we could move away from the concept of gender fullstop. What’s the point of it?

The point of it is to justify the oppression of women, which is why feminism is interested in dismantling gender, rather than reifying it.

Thinking theoretically:

Third genders seem to work to let people function in societies where there are pretty stiff sex based roles. It gives people some wiggle room, and typically they seem to be treated somewhere in between the two different sex roles. Obviously it doesn't change anyone's sex though.

On the other hand, we have extremely loose sex roles in our society. So it's difficult to know what a third gender would be for, what rules would apply to it. Most things that are segregated for us are connected to sex fairly clearly, rather than cultural expectations.

@titchy

Validation innit. Using a 3rd space instead of a female space means they accept they aren't female. But they don't accept that bat all.

What titchy said.

@ChestnutStuffing

Thanks, this is sort of what I was trying to ham fistedly elude to.

I find NB really bothersome for a couple of reasons. Adopting difficult pronouns just feels like a way for rather sad people to force others to give them a level of mental and emotional labour they’re really not entitled to. Someone can tell me their pronouns are xi/xir when we meet, but if I don’t see them again for six months they’re lucky of I can remember their name, let alone their fantasy pronouns. The sort of personality who thinks that’s all hunky-dory to do doesn’t strike me as a pleasant one, there’s a glaring narcissism in manufacturing a situation that will inevitably lead to future opportunities to put on a performance of hurt and upset at some poor saps expense. Add to that that NB doesn’t do anything to challenge gender norms, as claimed, but like nearly all trans ideology, only reinforces them.