Do you talk about this at home?

[JoodyBlue]

Just wondering whether posters discuss the issues around gender id at home? The philosophy is making its way into many (even most) workplaces and educational establishments at present, so DCs and OHs are also dealing with it. The concerns can become consuming. I have to say I struggle with how much time and energy it takes to keep up with the arguments and with being a mum to other people dealing with it. Any advice? How do others find it? I noted a thread from a poster this morning having a disagreement with OH about right to request a female HCP.

and of course, people needing to earn a living.......

My two teenage sons and husband all think trans ideology is a lot of nonsense but they don’t do anything about it, presumably as it doesn’t affect them.

This is basically our house too. One of my DSs has a transwoman as a flatmate but got annoyed when I asked if he was in a relationship with her and said "of course not" but then tried to backtrack when I asked him to explain why not.

Dh knows what I think, and has come to agree, though he doesn't really dwell on it much. 15yo Dd is full-on TWAW and is pretty gender-non-conforming herself. She knows we don't see eye-to-eye on this, and she makes occasional barbed remarks about people like JKR (in spite of loving Harry Potter). I do not discuss it with her for fear of pushing her further the other way. I think/hope she will come around eventually. Ds is only 12 and listens to his sister, but doesn't really know much about the whole thing really.

What Uppity says is very true. A lot of the things that are happening are so ludicrous (rapists in women’s jails etc) that it’s hard to get people to recognise that they are actually happening and aren’t just going to get sorted out with common sense once everyone realises. I had this problem with DH initially. Once he realised that men could be sharing a changing room with our daughters it seems to concentrate his mind.

DD (13) is in some very woke circles online and sometimes accuses me of transphobia but we keep talking about it which I think is helpful.

Yes, a lot.

My family all roll my eyes at me now and just say 'enough' whenever I bring it up, although my eldest son now understands I'm not transphobic, but fighting for women's rights. My husband completely agrees with me but also thinks I need to dial it back a bit!! I probably do need to try not to talk about it so much, but every single day something else comes up which makes me cross.

I lost a friend over it yesterday (via FB). She put up a post about transgender people in sport and I said I categorically did not support it, along with facts and figures as to why. It was fine until I said that woman is not a costume and she flounced off FB. She has a child who is trans and cannot entertain any alternative view than affirmation and complete inclusion everywhere. I did email her to apolgise for expressing myself badly (I did - there may have been wine...!) and she said she was deeply hurt that I even thought like that (along with about 15 paras of explanation as to why I'm wrong).

Sigh.

The training came to my workplace and there were some overheard conversations with people trying to understand what was the "right" thing to say and what was the "wrong" thing in terms of respecting identity - essentially pronouns. In a professional organisation, the majority simply agree that this is the "right" answer and everyone is happy. No critical thought about the reasons for the change, but just ensuring the "right" thing was done. I find it fascinating and absolutely terrifying, the lack of questioning of a new way of understanding sex. It is like a crazy social psychological experiment into group think is happening.

I find the urban middle classes so much more woke than working class people. Working class people see the reality of sending daughters to schools with mixed loos and female relations having to accept mixed sex NhS wards or carers. The middle class can pay for a private room, select an eldercare worker themselves and if they end up in a domestic violence situation are far less likely to need a refuge as there’s enough money to get a place of their own, get effective injunctions or get support for alternative accommodation from wealthy friends. Working class women don’t have these choices. Working class dads know the realities for their daughters

@Panicmode1 sorry to hear it. Perhaps you haven't lost your friend long term. I do think that even the term "trans child" should be up for debate though.

@Eowynthewarrior - yes

I think my ten year old DD has had some education about it in school because she is fully TWAW / we need to respect pronouns / I think I identify as X / omg my mum is transphobic.

We've had a few talks about it. The last one (a few nights ago) was in the kitchen making tea with DD10 and DD6 and we got into it all again when DD10 said her cuddly reversible octopus (half pink half blue) was gender fluid.

What I think is funny is that the 6 year old gets it. She's a complete tomboy, won't touch pink, prefers paw patrol to barbie, always climbing, always dirty, always playing football, most friends are boys. And yet she is arguing with her sister that she's still a girl and girls can like all of those things and not have to change into a boy.

I think we are slowly bringing DD10 around but time will tell...

@JoodyBlue We have actually had a very civilised exchange of emails and agreed to just 'take a break'. I'm choosing not to go back on her most recent essay and challenge some of the things she's said to me - because I know that she is struggling with how the world will accept her child, and that we won't agree or change each other's minds.

(I didn't really know how to word that bit - they are really a young adult now (over 18 and at uni) but haven't had any surgical or hormonal interventions, but living as the opposite sex.)

I talk about it a lot at home.

My DH is like some of the previous posters' partners. He is against TRA ideology and broadly agrees with me but thinks I bang on about it too much. He is quite 'woke' and a lot of the things he likes: - Biden & AOC, right on stand-up comedy, dance music - are signed up to TWAW and he doesn't want to destroy the things he loves by thinking too critically about them all the time (I don't blame him for that!).

DS12 is gender critical but he goes to a rainbow-washed school (albeit one thankfully in a multicultural area so it can't go too far down the 'gender neutral' route with regard to religious sensitivities) and is a gamer so he treads a fine line well. He laughs with me about 'custom gender' or 'womxn' but would always be polite and sensitive to other people's gender expression and identity.

DS6 - god knows. He's into Minecraft, Marvel and his views on feminism broadly align with the Taliban.

Speaking of which, in our local schools Malala's story is studied a lot - both in primary and secondary and I wonder if that is true of other areas? I think it is certainly relevant in making DS1 aware of feminism - he knows that Malala wouldn't have been shot in the head if she was a boy.

Just remembered DS12's woke-ish school last week did a webinar on JK Rowling as a positive role model so I think there is a well balanced attitude there. I shudder at some of the stories on here about gender propaganda in schools.

Several extended family members were initially nothing to do with me views (especially the male ones), a couple of others were full on woke, most started where I was which was fully LGBT+ accepting and unaware of the issues.

Three years on: DM rings me to rant about Women's Hour and increasingly is alert to this in the news, huge concerns re Tavistock, all gobsmacked by SNP, and the two wokest have both recently started to have clear boundaries and make distinctly GC noises. I say little, just listen and go hmm a lot, they're getting there. Friends, several are flat out GC and always have been: of the several trans friends in the network, one is spiralling badly following hormones and the entire network is noticing, concerned, and moving from vigorous and naiive yay you to seeing the many underlying issues and risks for this vulnerable person. It's been very hard to watch.

The line of travel is based on direct experience and generally goes one way once someone starts to see the issues, because it isn't about not supporting trans people - I don't know anyone who doesn't - its about not trampling female people and children's/vulnerable teenagers rights and futures underfoot in the process.

Not often, because DC’s trans friends are female (so he doesn’t see the problem with males because if the female trans are lovely why wouldn’t male trans be)

And he was well captured by MRA, and when that loosened slightly, TRA were right there to sweep him up.

And since, as a male, he has never experienced misogyny then it mustn’t exist & MRA/TRA are right that women are trying to usurp men.

So we agree to mostly not discuss it. It occasionally will crop up and strangely he can be calm and rational when his friends are exploring changing their positions/questioning more.

And an absolute arse if it something he perceives, or has been coached to perceive, as being ‘anti-male’ because it affords women their sex based rights.

And this is exclusively when he is arsey about it, not when its about the rights of his female trans friends but specifically when men have been denied something like access to female toilets/shortlists etc.

At those points I remind him my position hasn’t changed and that I see its MRA and not even TRA bs he’s spouting so I will not be engaging in anti-women rhetoric in my own home.

I also may mention it if he starts taking the piss out of flat earthers, covid deniers, anti-vaxxers or even his occasional lecture re food science.

Because I refuse to let him be a pontificating hypocrite without letting him know that’s been clocked.

There is definitely someone online coaching him and prompting him to start arguments, I even know who that person is

I am trusting that everything will be ok by remaining steadfast in my love for him, and continuously reasserting boundaries his ‘mentor’ has him testing.

The attacks are all calculated, its that infiltrate and subvert from the inside so it looks like in-fighting family dispute rather than an outside attack.

But I see it, and not just in my family, I am rather hoping others see it too and redirect their anger towards those manipulating them as they realise that the women in their lives have done nowt but love them and try to protect themselves and others from abuse.

It’s a longer road than I thought but the singular thing men forget is that every abuse and trial they put us through makes us dig deeper, work harder, be more, whereas they are in their hotel room of privilege with room service on tap and getting soft, soft, soft.

DD (13) is in some very woke circles online and sometimes accuses me of transphobia but we keep talking about it which I think is helpful.

I have been very upfront/hardline with my DD of a similar age - particularly about what is happening at the Tavistock and to girls - many of whom have complex needs. I have discussed the pathway to halt puberty and resultant impact on maturation, sexual function/fertility/mastectomies etc. I have shown her videos of Keira Bell. I have made it explicitly clear to her that this is the medical scandal of the age.

I also try and teach my DDs critical thinking - for them to evaluate what they are told, the credibility of the source and for them to believe the evidence of their own eyes. I.e. if you can see that the sky is blue, why would you let anyone make you believe/say it is green?

However, both DH and I are of a medical background, so the DC are used to medical issues being discussed at home, so this is not out of character for our household.

@Panicmode1

Yeah - DH and I had a fairly intense conversation about it that ended in kind of an impasse. He's inclined to believe that anyone described as a transphobe is a transphobe, end of story, whereas I explained to him I felt too many women expressing concerns were having hate piled on them when they meant no harm to transwomen at all.

He knows my feeling is that I'm actually not bothered about trans women sharing my spaces or my daughter's but I have been lucky, it would appear, having had very few negative interactions with men, let alone abuse or assault and that I do understand that women who have, have non-transphobic reasons for wanting seperate spaces. The 'enemy' of all women is patriarchy and male violence (not women being insufficiently 'kind'), and unfortunately that means it is not a simple matter for every woman to be comfortable with trans women in all situations and I think he did get that to some extent.

He has always felt that trans women being in women's sport is problematic, though.

@Sacreblue

Not often, because DC’s trans friends are female (so he doesn’t see the problem with males because if the female trans are lovely why wouldn’t male trans be)

And he was well captured by MRA, and when that loosened slightly, TRA were right there to sweep him up.

And since, as a male, he has never experienced misogyny then it mustn’t exist & MRA/TRA are right that women are trying to usurp men.

So we agree to mostly not discuss it. It occasionally will crop up and strangely he can be calm and rational when his friends are exploring changing their positions/questioning more.

And an absolute arse if it something he perceives, or has been coached to perceive, as being ‘anti-male’ because it affords women their sex based rights.

And this is exclusively when he is arsey about it, not when its about the rights of his female trans friends but specifically when men have been denied something like access to female toilets/shortlists etc.

At those points I remind him my position hasn’t changed and that I see its MRA and not even TRA bs he’s spouting so I will not be engaging in anti-women rhetoric in my own home.

I also may mention it if he starts taking the piss out of flat earthers, covid deniers, anti-vaxxers or even his occasional lecture re food science.

Because I refuse to let him be a pontificating hypocrite without letting him know that’s been clocked.

There is definitely someone online coaching him and prompting him to start arguments, I even know who that person is

I am trusting that everything will be ok by remaining steadfast in my love for him, and continuously reasserting boundaries his ‘mentor’ has him testing.

The attacks are all calculated, its that infiltrate and subvert from the inside so it looks like in-fighting family dispute rather than an outside attack.

But I see it, and not just in my family, I am rather hoping others see it too and redirect their anger towards those manipulating them as they realise that the women in their lives have done nowt but love them and try to protect themselves and others from abuse.

It’s a longer road than I thought but the singular thing men forget is that every abuse and trial they put us through makes us dig deeper, work harder, be more, whereas they are in their hotel room of privilege with room service on tap and getting soft, soft, soft.

Online grooming. ☹️

How old is your DC?

Well, when you put it like that @furx I shall refrain from any dialling down....

I bloody love that artwork.

It’s good to hear from others in this position.

Here, DH totally gets it and thinks it’s all bollocks. But at the same time doesn’t realise the extent of capture I don’t think. DS was fairly neutral, but recently asked, why when I am so progressive in my approach to women, people of different races and sexuality was I not on this issue. I think it may have been after a school session because we’ve not spoken about it since.

One of the reasons why is that I had a mahoosive bust up with my DD about it over the summer. She believes everything she’s been told at school (we are in one of the wokest parts of the country). It was awful. She was so angry and hardly spoke to me for a number of weeks. Things are so much better now that I am taking a different tack.

As PP have said, my anger and activity is and will be directed outward. At those in education, politics and welfare, who have enabled this. I will not have division in my home. If it comes up in future I will be encouraging some critical thinking and just asking stupid questions:

Is gender identity the same in Mogadishu as Milton Keynes?
If TWAW, can they have babies?
Who perpetrates violence against TW.
Why would I be such a bigot, after I marched in protest at clause 28, etc?

Part of my thinking is that this ideology thrives on division between parents and children. I don’t want to contribute to that so am treading a fine line. But it’s tiring, and I don’t want to be thinking about having to defend women’s rights in the second decade of the 21st century. I somehow thought we’d have that sorted by now.

DH and DD14 are both fully in board with my Gc views and think it’s all bollocks. I’ve talked enough about it at home for them to now roll their eyes and exclaim loudly “yes we know, you can’t change your sex!” to stop me ranting.

However I think DD would be confident enough to ask relevant questions at school should the topic crop up because she’s a bit gobby like her mother. She’s lucky that her school’s not been Stonewalled so RSE is rather non-contentious. I have been at pains to point out that unlike her and her friends, I was not allowed to play football at school, no girls were. There were no football or rugby teams for girls and the only reason they have a girls team at all age groups is because of people like me who fought for the right to play the sports we wanted.

My DH is a dyed in the wool Marxist, so fully gender critical. I wouldn't have married him otherwise! DD is only a baby, but I'm already afraid for her future.

Old enough to know better War but the online MRA stuff started @ 14/15 (via gaming sites surprised?)

He accessed therapy and moved away from the worst incel-type stuff, helped a female friend when she was abused by a male friend, supporting her and opening challenging him (verbally not physically)

However there is a specific person who has infiltrated his online crowd and that person has a personal vendetta.

I don’t have first hand evidence of other teens being targeted in a less personal way but from what I’ve read, and given our experience of his initial contact with incel/MRA/TRA ideology, it is my opinion that there is grooming of male teens/pre-teens specifically intended to separate them from their families by creating tensions.

This has two direct effects:

It creates lonely, isolated, disaffected and vulnerable pre-teen/teens who trust a randomer on the internet more than their family.

It keeps mothers on high alert and fire-fighting constantly so we are prevented from agitating for social change on our own behalf because (generally) our primary focus is on our children’s safety and well-being.

Neither of these effects are good for children, teenagers, women or even men who care about the welfare of women and youngsters.