"But it's true - that's what they are." Please help me unpick this.

[PikesPeaked]

Using sex-accurate pronouns to refer to somebody is often defended by it being factual reality. Even though the pronoun is a 'name' that the person does not want to be called by.

This calls to mind 'Yid' being used as a derogatory term for a Jew. Something that has been defended by "that's what they are" and "that's what they call themselves". Which is true. The word for Jew in Yiddish is 'Yid'.

Why is one acceptable but not the other?

For full disclosure, I am a gender critical Jew from a Yiddish-speaking background (though I don't speak it).

I agree. pronouns are not really worth fighting over, and if someone wants to be called 'xhe/they' or whatever, then it would be polite to go with that.

Focusing on the situations where the physical body matters - changing rooms / sports etc is more important.

Because presumably people who call a Jewish person thar as a slur are not using that word because they are speaking in Yiddish. If I'm speaking English, then 'he' and 'she' are the normal, standard words to refer to a male or female person. 'Yid' is not the normal English word to refer to a Jewish person, and any English-speaker knows that, so if they use the word they are doing so deliberately, in the knowledge that it is considered a slur in English. I'd also argue that a pronoun is not quite the same as a name.

The difference is in the "that's what they call themselves" bit. Those who want others to use (say) female pronouns for them also refer to themselves as female.

Basically, the pronouns are an external effect of them claiming a disputable identity. In the Jewish example, nobody is disputing that they are Jewish, and the question is whether a certain term is derogatory when used by outsiders. It's completely different. A better comparison to "Yid" would be "queer".

Thing is pronouns are used all the time aren't they. I think forcing particularly children to ignore everything they know and what they see In front of them is harmful.

Pronouns aren't a value judgement. I dont think we should be gaslighting kids this way. It confuses them and creating a situation where they can no longer trust the adults around them who they will see as lying to them. It creates a potentially dangerous situation.

I also don't think its healthy to give children or adults even the ability to control people in that way. It's power people haven't earned and shouldn't have and often can't handle.

They shouldn't when used correctly cause an upset ( ie when not used in a omg he runs like a girl we should call her she sense )

I think that's different to words that had been historically used to insult and inflict racism amd intolerance on people.

I always go back to this on pronouns

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

@parietal

I agree. pronouns are not really worth fighting over, and if someone wants to be called 'xhe/they' or whatever, then it would be polite to go with that.

Focusing on the situations where the physical body matters - changing rooms / sports etc is more important.

That is not what I said. I made no suggestion of that sort.

FWIW I strongly disagree with being compelled to deny factual reality.

And don't start going on about sky fairies and flying spaghetti monsters - you can have a faith
without being a creationist.

@lazylinguist

Because presumably people who call a Jewish person thar as a slur are not using that word because they are speaking in Yiddish. If I'm speaking English, then 'he' and 'she' are the normal, standard words to refer to a male or female person. 'Yid' is not the normal English word to refer to a Jewish person, and any English-speaker knows that, so if they use the word they are doing so deliberately, in the knowledge that it is considered a slur in English. I'd also argue that a pronoun is not quite the same as a name.

"Which one is PikesPeaked?"

"Her over there"
"The Jew over there"
"The woman in trousers over there"

Pronouns are often needed for clarity. I very rarely need to clarify someone's religion unless it's needed in the context.

Eg. No, my Muslim friend can't stay in the mixed hostel because of her religious beliefs.

Pronouns can be altered to be polite to an individual. Personally, I'd use a trans women's preferred pronoun to her face. I would vary my use elsewhere. I wouldn't want to unintentionally mislead others by using the wrong pronoun.

Eg. It'll just be me, you and my friend Anna. By the way he likes to dress as a woman and be called she.

I think a heads up in this circumstance would be appreciated by everyone involved. Anna gets her validation and our mutual friend doesn't find herself in a situation she was unprepared for or where she doesn't know how to address Anna.

In crime clarity is needed and birth pronouns should be used (although refusal to do this is muddying the water regarding violent crime and women)

There is absolutely no good reason to call anyone a 'Yid'.
Plenty of good reasons to resist the pronoun craze - eg women being forced to refer to their male assaulter as 'she' in court.

pike

If you were my friend and you say, went missing on the way home from work one day and I was the last person to see you, your religious back ground would probably be one of the few things I could tell the police that wouldn't be relevant

If I told the police xe was wearing a red hoody black jeans and a blue baseball cap, they would have no idea who they were actually looking for .

@Whatwouldscullydo

pike

If you were my friend and you say, went missing on the way home from work one day and I was the last person to see you, your religious back ground would probably be one of the few things I could tell the police that wouldn't be relevant

If I told the police xe was wearing a red hoody black jeans and a blue baseball cap, they would have no idea who they were actually looking for .

I don't think that's necessarily true. What if she was a Muslim woman wearing a conventional head covering, or an Orthodox Jew with the typical wig and flat shoes (woman) or hair and hat (man)?

I really think the answer to the OP is very simple. People who identify as the opposite sex are asking people to refer to them in the same way that they refer to themselves. They're not calling themselves male while asking us to call them female.

I really think the answer to the OP is very simple. People who identify as the opposite sex are asking people to refer to them in the same way that they refer to themselves. They're not calling themselves male while asking us to call them female.

Except that I am a Yid, whereas I am not a him.

I'm.not particularly clued up on religious clothing tbh so barring head scarves which not all Muslim women wear it would not really mean much to me if I was looking out for someone I would hope it would be more accurately described as part if the clothing description rather than assumed someone would instantly know all forms.of dress if that makes sense.

Which one is PikesPeaked?""Her over there" "The Jew over there"
"The woman in trousers over there"

The fact that, grammatically speaking, you can use a pronoun in place of a name, that doesn't mean they are the same.

I can use 'it' instead of the words 'cat', 'arsehole' or 'independence'. But the word 'it' doesn't have the same detailed meaning, impact or emotional resonance as many of the words it can replace.

Arguably, the only time the word 'it' does have a big impact is if you use it to replace the wrong kind of noun- i.e. to refer to a human rather than an animal or an inanimate object. Just as 'she' is a commonplace, unremarkable word until you use it to refer to someone who is not in fact female.

Except that I am a Yid, whereas I am not a him.

How do we know any of this, though? Perhaps you are a member of the Jewish faith, or you could be someone who enjoys using slurs and sees a chance to use one here. Perhaps you are not a 'him' but you were born with male genitalia? How is anyone supposed to know, now that language has been mangled. I note that your user name contains a banned word, so I am leaning towards thinking that you are not here in good faith.

@PikesPeaked

I really think the answer to the OP is very simple. People who identify as the opposite sex are asking people to refer to them in the same way that they refer to themselves. They're not calling themselves male while asking us to call them female.

Except that I am a Yid, whereas I am not a him.

I think that's my point. The OP quoted two arguments: "But that's what they are", and "But that's what they call themselves".

which could be applied to Jewish people and the word "Yid".

The argument "but that's what they are" applies also to calling people by the pronouns of their biological sex - "but he is male, why not say so?"

However, the argument of "but that's what they call themselves" has the opposite effect in this context - what they call themselves is "women, she, her".

I've no idea what your religion, sex and/or gender identity are though @PikesPeaked, so I may have missed your point.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'm.not particularly clued up on religious clothing tbh so barring head scarves which not all Muslim women wear it would not really mean much to me if I was looking out for someone I would hope it would be more accurately described as part if the clothing description rather than assumed someone would instantly know all forms.of dress if that makes sense.

Yeah, makes sense. I was being a bit pedantic about a missing person's religious background not being relevant.

I think OP is saying that a biological male being called he/him when they would prefer she/her is frowned upon by some even though they are not a she/her biologically, but calling a Jewish person a yid is considered offensive even though that is acceptable to many in the Jewish community as that is what they call themselves. And why is one reality OK to ignore but the other isn't.

Is that correct OP?

I think it would be more relevant to the people who find a missing person. In perhaps respecting certain boundaries witg who they are left with ir what clothing ir food etc they give when the person is found. Maybe even having a translator on stand by .

Not really that relevant to the people out searching they need to know age height build sex clothing etc

Pikes Peak is a mountain in Colorado, which I climbed with my OH many years ago. It was a personal achievement of which I am very proud, as it was very challenging for me.

So I Summitted Pikes Peak, aka Peaked Pikes Peak. I could have used PikesPeakSummitted, but that does not flow nearly as well as PikesPeaked.

This username is a personal reminder of success and joy.

Oh, and my name predates the disapproval of that terminology.

OK by you?

Not sure about where I stand here. However, here is the " Pronouns are Rohypnol" article which suggests that their usage is the thin end of the wedge.

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/pronouns-are-rohypnol

But yid is not in the common vocabulary, as suggested upthread so if someone used it I would imagine it to be one of three motivations.

An academic needing to clarify for some reason.

A person of that community using it.

A racist slur.

Just re read and I've got it the opposite way round I think.