"But it's true - that's what they are." Please help me unpick this.

[PikesPeaked]

Using sex-accurate pronouns to refer to somebody is often defended by it being factual reality. Even though the pronoun is a 'name' that the person does not want to be called by.

This calls to mind 'Yid' being used as a derogatory term for a Jew. Something that has been defended by "that's what they are" and "that's what they call themselves". Which is true. The word for Jew in Yiddish is 'Yid'.

Why is one acceptable but not the other?

For full disclosure, I am a gender critical Jew from a Yiddish-speaking background (though I don't speak it).

If I wanted people to call me Revd and I wasn't a priest, would that be my choice? Or their choice according to the seriousness of the circumstance whether or not they choose to humour me? Or Dr and I wasn't a PhD/MD?

[quote CaraDuneRedux]@bourbonne I bow to your pedantry, I am in awe of your pedantry... I might even go as far as to say I revere your pedantry.

And I too share your suspicions, especially since the rubbish analogy (which even an 11 year old SATS student could see was rubbish) that started the thread was I suspect contrived with the express intention of shoe-horning in a really offensive word in the hope that someone would pick it up and run with it.[/quote]

Also suspicious was their offer to report the whole thread and ask to leave our posts standing... Which would leave it unclear what we were responding to and leave open the possibility that we were just bringing up offensive terms ourselves.

@thirdfiddle

If I wanted people to call me Revd and I wasn't a priest, would that be my choice? Or their choice according to the seriousness of the circumstance whether or not they choose to humour me? Or Dr and I wasn't a PhD/MD?

There are online colleges that can help with this . Ben Goldacre bought a PhD for his pet cat (deceased) from the online outfit which supplied TV diet guru Gillian McKeith with her's - which led to trading standards insisting she remove the word "doctor" from the packaging of her dietary supplements.

Perhaps we need to get trading standards on the case here!

Where did that fucking rogue apostrophe come from? Get.

Consider Pakistani/Paki.
The diminutive is a slur. It has negative derogatory and racist connotations. It can be discarded for the more accurate word which does not carry those stereotypes.

Asking someone to refrain from using a slur is acceptable. Demanding that others discard a neutral descriptive word as if it was a slur when it is not because that person WANTS to associate derogatory connotations with it, is not acceptable.

If a white person asked me to call them black because they enjoyed offensive racial stereotypes, and told me not to refer to them as white because white people embody another set of offensive racial stereotypes, I would not comply, and I would refuse to endorse those views. I would not consider the demand polite, not to either racial group in question, and I wouldn't consider those who did comply polite either. I'd consider that they were tacitly endorsing racial stereotypes.

I think more people should consider what views they are endorsing by complying with an expectation that sex should be unmentionably offensive whereas to endorse someone's offensive views about sexism is 'polite'.

He/she are not slurs. They reference sex. Sex is no more offensive than any other fact of life.

Those who demand others use inappropriate (opposite sex) pronouns, are demanding that others endorse their offensive views about the nature of being female or male. I don't consider this to be a request for courtesy. I won't endorse a man who views the true nature of being female as possessing invisible feminine essence or performing sexist stereotypes. I don't consider it polite to endorse offensive sexism about my own sex, perpetuated by a member of the opposite sex.

I don't believe a man demanding I call him 'she' is asking for politeness. He's actually demanding my compliance, my subjugation and my endorsement of his sexist view on what makes a person female.

I won't do that.

And I also now suspect that the OP started this thread disingenuously to try and get screenshots of us using racial slurs

In which case I walked straight into that one.
However as adults I think we should be able to carefully reference what makes something a slur with an example, without that being wilfully misinterpreted. If you can't discuss why something is wrong and a slur, you become ineffective in preventing a slur being perpetuated.

I'll probably end up regretting trying though.

I don't want to add to the troll hunting talk but just want to say that OP has been around for a while. I've noticed their name before on a few threads and you can see yourself if you do an advanced search.

Perhaps my OP is naive, but it is not deliberately disingenuous or provocative. I genuinely struggle with the concept that I may describe you as I see reflects reality, but you may not describe me as you see reflects reality.

Absolutely agree with the Rohypnol analogy.

I haven't had the chance to read and reflect on the last couple of hours of posts, as real life gets in the way, but I will certainly do so as soon as I can.

Barracker, I totally concur with your view of pronouns as compelled speech. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but not to force the rest of us to submit to validating them.
I’m a Christian, but I wouldn’t dream of forcing atheists to say that God exists.

I find it odd that anyone would refer to themselves using a slur.
But then I heard the word in question for the first time today and so maybe it's not one.
I do think it's a completely irrelevant equivalence and am not sure how op can't see that.

I was always uneasy using the wrong sexed pronouns for people. When I read Baracker's classic Pronouns are Rohypnol it explored all the levels of unease I felt and I promised myself to be truthful. The demand by TRAs to use preferred pronouns is framed as kindness, ignoring the fact that it disrespects me, it disrespects language. Plus my ASD makes misrepresenting things very hard for me.

I would use preferred pronouns as a courtesy in the company of a transgender person who cared about it. In practice this hasn't happened. When with those people I used their name and had no need to use a pronoun.

But I don't use preferred pronouns for people who aren't present. I'm not going to hurt anyone's feelings face to face but I'm not going to lie about them when they're not When posting here I use forms of language that avoid the issue. But when talking in private I always refer to people by the appropriate sexed pronouns these days.

We're under pressure to distort the meaning of some of the most basic areas of our lives. We're asked to pretend that mammals can change sex and that children can be born into the wrong bodies. I find speaking the truth to be - in a small way - a revolutionary act.

Oh and regarding the OP, you can't seriously compare pronouns to slurs. Whether someone's male or female isn't a value judgement. It's just a fact, like saying I've got children.

I find speaking the truth to be - in a small way - a revolutionary act

In current climes it is a revolutionary act in more than a small way. It's being reframed as illegal by many and as intolerable by more. It's never been more important to defend the right to tell the truth than now.

I genuinely struggle with the concept that I may describe you as I see reflects reality, but you may not describe me as you see reflects reality.

This reminds me of when I was at school. I would get referred to as a skank and a minger. When I objected I was told it's true.

I mean, there's such a thing as being polite. I'd never call a colleague fat, even when they are.

Unless they went missing, then I might be pushed to imply it with large build or something.

But as already suggested, pronouns are innocent substitutes for names, usually used when the person in question who isn't there. It's trying to take offense when there is none. Manipulation of reality and how people perceive you.

Incidentally, when I am not there, I don't imagine people are walking around going, oh yeah buffster, you know that brave and stunning person.

I expect they're going, you know, buffster, that gawky, opinionated twit.

And they're not compelled not to. Sure the first one would be nicer, but people aren't compelled to talk in a certain way. In a professional zone they'd likely get pulled up for being harsh, but informal situations they can do what they like.

If I want them to not call me a twit I can change my behaviour, but I can't change my physicality. It just is. The fact that people always go to the aesthetic first is a symptom of sexism, as the ideal would be to describe my achievements and personality not my package.

Sorry, massive rant off tangent there.

Although now I think on it, could people's inability to cope with the idea others might talk about them in a way they don't like be fueling this thing.

I mean, if the boys who bullied me were too busy worrying if I was meowself or faeself the bullying might get sidetracked.

And if I was at school today and identified as a boy I'd have some form of protection from comments like that.

Whereas as a girl in the 90s I just had to lump it and put on more make-up.

Although now I think on it, could people's inability to cope with the idea others might talk about them in a way they don't like be fueling this thing

I think our job as parents to make our kids realise the world doesn't revolve around them. That outside of friends amd family actually no one really cares. I dont think indulging the level of paranoid by insinuating they have a right to control the conversation when they aren't even there is a good idea really.

I think its setting them up fir a fall

Yes, and you can't get the world to agree with your image of yourself.

Except now people have more opportunity to try and manipulate the way others see you.

Feel ugly? Use a filter
Feel fat? Use Photoshop
Feel unpopular? Post all the socializing you are doing
Feel unintelligent? Post thought provoking material or regurgitate ideas as your own.

Unfortunately, eventually reality will catch up with you. And we're not equipping young people to deal with knocks by having them ignore reality.

Hi - just dropping in to ask people to avoid troll hunting on the thread please. We can confirm that the OP has been around the boards for a long time and we have no reason to think they’re not genuine.

Incorrect pronouns are designed to manipulate perception.
“They wouldn’t let her in the girls’ toilet” sounds like injustice
“ They wouldn’t let him in the girls’ toilet “ is a whole different story.
You may think you are being polite but actually you are changing the meaning of a situation completely.
The Gender Representation on Public Boards legislation in Scotland allows legal men to demonstrate they are women by showing that people used female pronouns for them. This is not just about politeness this is about manipulating reality.

Unfortunately, eventually reality will catch up with you. And we're not equipping young people to deal with knocks by having them ignore reality

I also think we should teach them that their followers aren't their friends. That all this changing yourself and bending over backwards to do everything everyone asks of you, to your own detriment, just to gain their approval will not see you suddenly worthy of their respect and consideration.

Elevating people to levels of importance they cant handle and turning their insecurities amd problems into entertainment for public consumption, is not raising awareness or furthering a cause. Its exploitation. Its feeding the neediness. Its not acceptance or kindness. Its just cruel

That all this changing yourself and bending over backwards to do everything everyone asks of you, to your own detriment, just to gain their approval will not see you suddenly worthy of their respect and consideration.

To be honest that just sounds like my experience of the patriarchy in the 90s. Highlights in my hair, make up, staying trim. Took me years to realise it's never enough and the more you play the game, the more you are fair game.

Same shit, different decade.

Same shit, different decade

Most definitely.

I mean its one thing to make the sacrifices for yourself. However now we have those handing over consent that's not theirs to give and utilising children who cant consent at all

If I'm speaking English, then 'he' and 'she' are the normal, standard words to refer to a male or female person. 'Yid' is not the normal English word to refer to a Jewish person, and any English-speaker knows that

It really is as simple as this, OP. Calling someone Jewish a yid is an insult. Refusing to use inaccurate or invented pronouns is not an insult, it's simply using correct English.

I googled. Honestly never heard the term before and according to Wikipedia that's mostly a good thing.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yid

And she he for anyone interested not a sniff of controversy

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/She_(pronoun)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_(pronoun)

Although perhaps op is confused because it can be complimentary when used within the language. But it's clearly a slur without the language context.