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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Who else sees the parallels between "nasty right wing GC" slurs and "nasty right wing Brexiter" slurs?

273 replies

ConsiderTheLobster · 30/01/2021 19:30

If you're GC, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're actually GC because you've looked into this deeply and are trying to protect vulnerable people (women, non-conforming children, and trans people).

If you voted Brexit, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're sceptical of the EU because it constitutes a corporate-favouring trading block, poses barriers to nationalisation of services such as railways, has deeply racist immigration policies (permitting free movement of predominantly white Europeans whilst restricting the movement of others), keeps people in many non-EU (e.g., African) countries locked into unfavourable trade deals, and reduces the influence of genuine democracy.

If you're GC and you work at a university, in the NHS or in left-leaning media, you're scared to say so. If you voted Brexit and you work at a university, in the NHS or in left-leaning media, you're scared to say so.

There are of course some genuine bigots who oppose self ID because they're transphobic. And there are genuine bigots who voted Brexit because they are racist. In each case, these are the narratives peddled by certain media about, respectively, all GCs, and all Brexit-supporters.

So - how many of us GCs still berate the nasty fascist Brexiters?

OP posts:
slitheringsnakes · 03/02/2021 15:56

Did any of you Brexit voters who are trying to dodge responsibility ever wonder why it was really only the crackpots who thought that Brexit was a great idea? How did you look at and listen to Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson and think that you should believe what they had to say rather than what almost all mainstream politicians and business groups were saying? I'm guessing you got a kick out of feeling that you were special and a bit of a rebel - seeing the truth whereas the rest of us just followed the herd?
I'm sure that lots of remainers didn't do any research either. But at least they knew what being in the EU meant - because they'd experienced it for decades. Voting for what you know is excusable. What you did is not.

highame · 03/02/2021 16:26

@BelleHathor I am watching the Robinhood stuff too. Have been following with interest but mine is about the capture of institutions by Stonewall and how TWAW is linked to Critical Race Theory. So far, big business has been fine with the TWAW but I would think before too long they will be looking at Robinhood and finding ways to shut them down. When they do, they will be withdrawing their support for anything linked to CRT (is my guess). I watch with interest

There is a lot of anger but there was a lot in the 60's and although we changed some things, not so much as we hoped and I don't think this latest crew are going to do any better.

Didn't mean to go off track, was just catching up with the thread and Belle's post caught my attention.....will get my coat Grin

highame · 03/02/2021 16:28

slitheringsnakes looks to me like you haven't read any of the thread, so would like to suggest that ill informed argument seems to be on both sides.

Floisme · 03/02/2021 17:09

Did any of you Brexit voters who are trying to dodge responsibility
Just in case that's a reference to my post about who I think is responsible for this, I voted remain and would do so again. I just think this incessant haranguing of people who voted otherwise is one reason why we're now likely to have a Tory government for another 9 years.

BelleHathor · 03/02/2021 17:22

[quote highame]@BelleHathor I am watching the Robinhood stuff too. Have been following with interest but mine is about the capture of institutions by Stonewall and how TWAW is linked to Critical Race Theory. So far, big business has been fine with the TWAW but I would think before too long they will be looking at Robinhood and finding ways to shut them down. When they do, they will be withdrawing their support for anything linked to CRT (is my guess). I watch with interest

There is a lot of anger but there was a lot in the 60's and although we changed some things, not so much as we hoped and I don't think this latest crew are going to do any better.

Didn't mean to go off track, was just catching up with the thread and Belle's post caught my attention.....will get my coat Grin[/quote]
Ooh don't apologise, it's so interesting isn't it. I found out about it a couple of weeks ago because an African American astrologer/artist i follow, tweeted about buying shares in Gamestop and a couple of other companies, I was like 👀. When it all blew up, CNN and other news outlets labelled the buyers as "Right Wing Trump Supporters" they have also been called Russian agents (despite the buyers being mostly not left or right wing just ordinary Americans). A lot of the buyers are now realising that if they can so easily be labelled as right wing in order to discredit them who else has been wrongly labelled by the Media. They see that the system is rigged. I had a similar epiphany with the Guardian after their repeated attacks on GC feminists, if they can so easily label feminists as violent transphobes who "just do not understand gender" why not Brexiters as stupid and racist.

Who else sees the parallels between "nasty right wing GC" slurs and "nasty right wing Brexiter" slurs?
CayrolBaaaskin · 03/02/2021 17:22

None of the below from the op is true In the slightest. OP’s response to that is that I misunderstand the EU but I am legally qualified (including in EU law) and that’s just not true. If you really voted Brexit because of any of the below, you were absolutely misinformed.

If you voted Brexit, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're sceptical of the EU because it constitutes a corporate-favouring trading block, poses barriers to nationalisation of services such as railways, has deeply racist immigration policies (permitting free movement of predominantly white Europeans whilst restricting the movement of others), keeps people in many non-EU (e.g., African) countries locked into unfavourable trade deals, and reduces the influence of genuine democracy.

ChestnutStuffing · 03/02/2021 17:56

@FifteenToes

I should probably point out I'm not actually an arch-Corbynite, in case I've come across as one. I agreed with most (not all) of his policies but don't actually come from the same place politically. But on the comments above...

So the working class complain that Blair sold out traditional Labour values and didn't do enough for them. And then when, through blood sweat and tears and interminable internal warfare, some people rise to a point in the Labour party from which they can actually reinstate those values and produce a program based on government investment in industry, redistribution, universal quality education, empowerment of local communities and all the things we're told people on the left actualy want . . .

"No, sorry. Can't vote for that, the messenger's not right."

"We need to do the logical thing and vote for the Tory who is all the same things but ten times worse instead."

News flash: The messenger will NEVER be right. You may think the problems with Corbyn's image are obvious and not just manufactured by the media, but ANY leader who actually threatens the economic privilege of the establishment will be gone over in forensic detail to find whatever weaknesses of image can be exploited, and then have those weaknesses ruthlessly pushed into public consciousness. The only time that won't happen is with a leader like Blair who the establishment know they're safe with. Oh but hang on: he didn't do enough for the working class...

As pp said above, "feelz".

There is no hope. I'm done with politics.

This is the problem with the kind of capitalism we have though. Really, what you get in practice is one real option - crony capitalism or crony capitalism - the package is different and maybe the flavourings, but the nutritional value is identical.

The same with saying leaving the EU would still leave people at the mercy of international trade deals and the way they undermine democratic processes. Yup.

Which is to say, there really isn't much cause to passionately berate people for voting the other way.

But it would be rather nice if middle class people might consider that the reason the vote for Labour (or the Democrats in the US, whatever) seems so obvious to them is because those parties are probably the best at looking out for middle class interests and middle class values. And if others vote for another party, it is probably because the same is true for them. And if they can't see how that is true -how it is that working class people might see the Torys as somehow more representative of their views - maybe they are missing part of the picture.

FifteenToes · 03/02/2021 19:06

@ChestnutStuffing

You know, what you wrote there is a commonly accepted trope - that politics is nothing more complicated than everybody voting for their own self interest. But in this case I honestly think you're wrong.

I can survive a Tory government, and I can survive Brexit. I'm not wealthy by a long way, but I'm nearing retirement, own my house and have enough in pensions etc. to make it work. As a property owning pensioner, I'll be among the LAST demographic that the Tories screw over. It'll be OK.

I vote Labour, and I voted Remain, because I don't WANT to live in a society where life is a question of closing myself up inside my own little world with the people I know and satisfying myself that I personally will be OK, while homeless people are freezing to death on the streets and poor people are dying avoidable deaths due to an underfended NHS. I want to be able to face any group of people that I come across in various aspects of my life and know that the society I work in, pay taxes and contribute to, gives them all a fair chance to make a decent life for themselves. Sure, some will be luckier than others, some more talented. Some will become millionaires and some not. I'm OK with that, I just don't want them to starve, freeze, have to work horrendous jobs with awful pay and conditions, or now be able to get a decent education for their kids.

These are my values, and with some variation of degree and detail they're the values of most Labour supporters I know. People take the piss out of middle class socialists like Corbyn because they've never been poor so don't really know what it's like to be working class, but what do you want them to do? They can do their best to contribute to a program intended to implement values of equality and universal respect that transcend class, or they can fuck off and join the capitalists, put their energy into looking after their own situation and leave the working poor to their own devices. Which would you prefer?

I've always looked at the USA and thought "Christ, thank God I don't live there". Not because I'd be poor, but because I don't want to live in a society where poor people get no healthcare and simply die instead. I don't want to live somewhere that unskilled workers get two weeks holiday a year, crap conditions and noone to argue their corner.

Is this what you mean by "middle class values"? Is it specifically middle class to care about other people and not want to see them freeze and starve and die? Is it specifically middle class to want to see everyone get the education they need to make the most of their talents and then contribute to society with them? OK then. But what's the alternative? What would you like the middle class to do instead?

Everyone understands that some of the working class vote Tory because they think the Tories will represent their interests. The problem is not that, it's that in most respects they're really just doing that based on feelz, and they're almost certainly wrong. That's not based on bigotry or superiority or anything else, it's based on analysis, history and the facts not adding up.

Honestly I'm not sure how useful class-based analysis is at this point. People tend to think, and vote, in terms of maximising individual liberty to make and keep wealth, or in terms of giving the government power to control some aspects of the economy, redistribute wealth and minimise some of the effects of inequality. With a lot of obvious exception and side players, the former tend to vote Tory and the latter Labour. Both types of people exist in all classes.

The thing is: Everyone knows that the second program is going to be detrimental to the economic self interest of the rich. They should, equally, know that the first is going to be detrimental to the economic self interest of the poor, but a whole industry of lies and obfuscation conceals that fact.

Tesseract · 03/02/2021 20:27

So - how many of us GCs still berate the nasty fascist Brexiters?

Well personally I've never berated any Brexiters, although I do disagree with their thinking, and still do disagree with that thinking despite my experiences as a GC woman on the left having changed how I read the motives behind some arguments I've encountered in other debates outside feminism (not just Brexit).

For me, the big difference is that I'm now much more viscerally aware of how frustrating and infuriating it is to have a genuine concern labelled as 'faux', and to have it assumed to be a front for a secretly different belief that's just not being spoken out loud because it is based on hatred or a phobia.

I therefore no longer trust that instinctive assumption about other people's motivations, when I find myself making it. That doesn't mean that I never end up thinking people are driven by prejudice or other malign motives, or by ignorance, because obviously some are; it just means that even when it seems blindingly obvious to me that they must be, I no longer trust that feeling as much and I'm more likely to dig deeper and give people the benefit of the doubt for longer.

On the other hand, I'm also still very aware that in lots of situations when I have had that certainty about other people's secret motivations, it hasn't come from a desire to be nasty, or politically pure, or authoritarian, or anything like that. It's felt like Occam's razor - the simplest and most obvious explanation is usually the right one. I therefore find I can't feel as angry as I might with people on the left who aren't the extreme TRAs, and who have a similar certainty that GC feminists must clearly be secretly motivated by hatred. I'd be a bit hypocritical if I was angry. I think they're mistaken in their assumptions about the motivations of GC feminists, and also in their beliefs about what's best for women - but those are two separate things.

I think it's a trap any of us can fall into. I've seen right wing friends make similar assumptions the other way (the 'real' reasons being believed to be masked by bad faith arguments, in that case, are things like simple left wing zealotry, hatred of middle class people, PC gone mad, hating our country and so on). The 'cancelling' of people as a results of these assumptions seems more of a problem currently on the left, but I think the underlying fallacy is universal.

So as a GC feminist rejected by many people on the left, being perceived as insincere in my arguments by people I've previously agreed with and think are like me has been an illuminating experience that's made me re-examine my own instinctive assumptions about other people's motivations. It hasn't changed my opinions on the underlying issues though. I still think Brexit was a terrible idea, and I still think there were malign forces at work on us the electorate in the form of some of the Leave campaigning and manipulative xenophobic tabloid stories.

ConsiderTheLobster · 03/02/2021 20:32

@CayrolBaaaskin

None of the below from the op is true In the slightest. OP’s response to that is that I misunderstand the EU but I am legally qualified (including in EU law) and that’s just not true. If you really voted Brexit because of any of the below, you were absolutely misinformed.

If you voted Brexit, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're sceptical of the EU because it constitutes a corporate-favouring trading block, poses barriers to nationalisation of services such as railways, has deeply racist immigration policies (permitting free movement of predominantly white Europeans whilst restricting the movement of others), keeps people in many non-EU (e.g., African) countries locked into unfavourable trade deals, and reduces the influence of genuine democracy.

@CayrolBaaaskin, I really don't understand your points here. You may think other factors outweigh what I've said, and that is of course fine. But the points in the post are well established.

For instance, it's well established that the EU's restrictions on state intervention can pose barriers to nationalising of services by effectively forcing elements of privatisation. In terms of railways, what do you make of the Fourth Rail Package?

And are you denying that the EU permits free movement of (predominantly white) Europeans whilst imposing more restrictions on the movement of others into the EU?

Are you denying that trade deals involving the EU and non-EU states can be more beneficial to the EU than to the other (e.g., African) states?

Are you really saying that the EU is democratic?

You may well think that these serious downsides of the EU are outweighed by other factors (and maybe they are/will be). But these are not lies.

OP posts:
ConsiderTheLobster · 03/02/2021 20:36

Arguments that you must be wrong if you find yourself on the same "side" of an issue as people you'd otherwise disagree with are ridiculous, and boil down to the "Hitler was a vegetarian, so we should eat meat" approach which was a favourite of 80s school kids.

The existence of Christian fundamentalist GCs doesn't undermine the stance. The existence of Nigel Farage doesn't negate the existence of (other) decent arguments against the EU.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 03/02/2021 20:38

Good post Tesseract.

ConsiderTheLobster · 03/02/2021 20:41

I therefore no longer trust that instinctive assumption about other people's motivations, when I find myself making it. That doesn't mean that I never end up thinking people are driven by prejudice or other malign motives, or by ignorance, because obviously some are; it just means that even when it seems blindingly obvious to me that they must be, I no longer trust that feeling as much and I'm more likely to dig deeper and give people the benefit of the doubt for longer.

Well put, @Tesseract.

OP posts:
ChestnutStuffing · 03/02/2021 20:59

[quote FifteenToes]@ChestnutStuffing

You know, what you wrote there is a commonly accepted trope - that politics is nothing more complicated than everybody voting for their own self interest. But in this case I honestly think you're wrong.

I can survive a Tory government, and I can survive Brexit. I'm not wealthy by a long way, but I'm nearing retirement, own my house and have enough in pensions etc. to make it work. As a property owning pensioner, I'll be among the LAST demographic that the Tories screw over. It'll be OK.

I vote Labour, and I voted Remain, because I don't WANT to live in a society where life is a question of closing myself up inside my own little world with the people I know and satisfying myself that I personally will be OK, while homeless people are freezing to death on the streets and poor people are dying avoidable deaths due to an underfended NHS. I want to be able to face any group of people that I come across in various aspects of my life and know that the society I work in, pay taxes and contribute to, gives them all a fair chance to make a decent life for themselves. Sure, some will be luckier than others, some more talented. Some will become millionaires and some not. I'm OK with that, I just don't want them to starve, freeze, have to work horrendous jobs with awful pay and conditions, or now be able to get a decent education for their kids.

These are my values, and with some variation of degree and detail they're the values of most Labour supporters I know. People take the piss out of middle class socialists like Corbyn because they've never been poor so don't really know what it's like to be working class, but what do you want them to do? They can do their best to contribute to a program intended to implement values of equality and universal respect that transcend class, or they can fuck off and join the capitalists, put their energy into looking after their own situation and leave the working poor to their own devices. Which would you prefer?

I've always looked at the USA and thought "Christ, thank God I don't live there". Not because I'd be poor, but because I don't want to live in a society where poor people get no healthcare and simply die instead. I don't want to live somewhere that unskilled workers get two weeks holiday a year, crap conditions and noone to argue their corner.

Is this what you mean by "middle class values"? Is it specifically middle class to care about other people and not want to see them freeze and starve and die? Is it specifically middle class to want to see everyone get the education they need to make the most of their talents and then contribute to society with them? OK then. But what's the alternative? What would you like the middle class to do instead?

Everyone understands that some of the working class vote Tory because they think the Tories will represent their interests. The problem is not that, it's that in most respects they're really just doing that based on feelz, and they're almost certainly wrong. That's not based on bigotry or superiority or anything else, it's based on analysis, history and the facts not adding up.

Honestly I'm not sure how useful class-based analysis is at this point. People tend to think, and vote, in terms of maximising individual liberty to make and keep wealth, or in terms of giving the government power to control some aspects of the economy, redistribute wealth and minimise some of the effects of inequality. With a lot of obvious exception and side players, the former tend to vote Tory and the latter Labour. Both types of people exist in all classes.

The thing is: Everyone knows that the second program is going to be detrimental to the economic self interest of the rich. They should, equally, know that the first is going to be detrimental to the economic self interest of the poor, but a whole industry of lies and obfuscation conceals that fact.[/quote]
Actually I said their interests and their values.

And yes, a state with good social welfare costs nice middle class people money, and they are supporting those with less with their taxes, etc, the fact is that the kinds of policies that social democratic parties favour tend to be very good for the middle classes. Both economically and in terms of the things they see as important.

If large numbers of people who are in a different sector, or a different part of the country, or a different age group, see things differently, there is almost certainly a reason for that. They are not less likely to care for others than the urban, university educated middle classes. They are also more aware of how their own livelihoods and communities have been affected by different kinds of policies, they have views on what makes a good life and how they want to live.

There is a reason that the modern left has so overwhelmingly embraced identity politics, and it is because it allows them to continue to talk about equality and justice without ever doing one thing that is a threat to global capitalism. Global capitalism is quite happy to be blind to all kinds of social and racial and sexual categories, so long as it continues to push wealth to the top.

Traditional leftist politics focused on viable local economies doing dignified work for fair pay, as well as state funded things like schools and health care. Which is why they were not typically for free trade or movement of labour. Right now, conservatives thinkers are talking about these things - within the right there is some real division on these questions, but it is on the table increasingly on the conservative side, and even political parties are giving at least lip service to those ideas.

The left isn't, unless you go so far left you are an old-school communist, which doesn't appeal to many. In fact they are repudiating such discussions with a fair bit of bile. And they continue to push ID politics and critical race theory which are both seen increasingly as vectors to avoid the real issues.

ChestnutStuffing · 03/02/2021 21:35

The question of values is a worthwhile one to look at, because a lot of the time we aren't self-concious about many of our own values - we take them for granted and don't realise we hold them.

A significant one in this context might be freedom to move vs freedom to stay. So, I want to be able to travel and go to school where I'd like, work in any place i'd like. Vs, I want to be able to find a good job and raise a family near the place I grew up or where my extended family is.

The former is liberal, and tends to belong to the middle classes on both the right and left, and the latter is tied to conservative views and tends to belong to the working classes on both the right and left, and also some members of the upper-upper classes (old money not new).

FifteenToes · 03/02/2021 23:01

Interesting. On this -

And yes, a state with good social welfare costs nice middle class people money, and they are supporting those with less with their taxes, etc, the fact is that the kinds of policies that social democratic parties favour tend to be very good for the middle classes. Both economically and in terms of the things they see as important.

Can you give me some examples of social democratic policies that benefit the middle classes more than the working class? The only ones I can think of are things like arts funding, free entry to museums and typically middle class activities. But these don't generally account for a significant chunk of total government spending.

FifteenToes · 03/02/2021 23:26

@ChestnutStuffing

There is a reason that the modern left has so overwhelmingly embraced identity politics, and it is because it allows them to continue to talk about equality and justice without ever doing one thing that is a threat to global capitalism. Global capitalism is quite happy to be blind to all kinds of social and racial and sexual categories, so long as it continues to push wealth to the top.

Traditional leftist politics focused on viable local economies doing dignified work for fair pay, as well as state funded things like schools and health care. Which is why they were not typically for free trade or movement of labour. Right now, conservatives thinkers are talking about these things - within the right there is some real division on these questions, but it is on the table increasingly on the conservative side, and even political parties are giving at least lip service to those ideas.

This reminded me that I meant to reply to your bit about local communitarianism from earlier. It's a beguiling vision, but I can see one huge problem with it - or rather, problem with seeing Brexit as a step towards it.

That is that the elements on the Tory right engineering Brexit are not doing it as part of a general anti-globalisation project, they're doing it as the exact opposite. They're quite happy to give the plebs the impression of local accountability through limits on where people live and work, but when it comes to the things that really matter, like movement of international capital, banking transparency and where they (don't) pay their taxes, they want out of the EU precisely so those things can be liberalised even more than they already are. The EU's reputation for protecting global corporates may be deserved, but its nothing compared to Tory Britain's penchant for offshore banking and tax avoidance for the mega rich.

In fact I would say the Brexit architects are happy to tolerate a bit of restriction on Freedom of Movement precisely because they know it's a very tiny piece of the greater puzzle. Having to pay a bit more for a plumber to fix your sink because there are no Bulgarians around to do it, is a small price to pay for having all your goods produced in third world sweatshops and sold in the UK by your company registered in an offshore tax haven at 0% tax. All those people currently busting a gut as Amazon delivery drivers are not suddenly going to find jobs in quaint village bookstores once it's easier, not harder, for Amazon to undercut them all by not only operating to the Tories' low expectations of labour conditions, but avoiding all tax on the proceeds once they do.

ChestnutStuffing · 04/02/2021 03:33

Sure, one great big one - Global capitalism is good for the middle classes, and if it's done with some nice social programs and chech some identity politics boxes, they can feel good about it, too.

What's not to like.

As far as the Tory's not being serious about rejecting global economics for a more local economics. Yes, that may be so - though there is in fact some serious discussion about these ideas in conservative circles - historically conservatism has also been sympathetic to that approach, unlike Liberalism. There has been something of a resurgence of that kind of conservatism in the last 10 years, and it's implicit still in some of their views on community resiliance.

But even if we ignore that, you aren't comparing Torys who won't do anything with Labour who will. You are comparing Labour who won't even acknowledge the issues, with a Tory party who does. Which are you going to hope might do something even if you suspect neither will do anything? Or maybe more often, which is going to stick in your craw the least to vote for?

Zinco · 04/02/2021 04:00

[FifteenToes:] "Can you give me some examples of social democratic policies that benefit the middle classes more than the working class?"

Support for high levels of immigration? That can both fit with middle class values (obviously they aren't a monolithic block that all think the same), and is more likely to economically benefit the middle class, while potentially undermining the wages of the working class.

So it can fit with their values, "We are the good guys not like those xenophobic types", and also may perhaps serve their economic interests.

Also with soft law and order policy, I'm not suggesting it benefits anyone, but it may be far more dangerous for the collapse of the poorest areas (quality of life there) compared to middle class areas. Middle class areas often stay relatively nice places to live.

So middle class values on law and order may absolutely screw the people at the bottom, despite being supposedly "compassionate", "progressive", or however it's being framed. I'm not suggesting it's all bad. Some policy may be genuinely successful in helping to reform people say. But you may end up with a system that is too weak to impose itself.

highame · 04/02/2021 06:36

We don't have to have policies to benefit the middle class. Once you (mc) have skewered all the best jobs, the best houses, the best schools and hang onto them and what's more take from the working classes (sure start nurseries) any housing ladder project etc., Interests continue to be protected. You've saved more in Lockdown and will come out of this crisis with a better start. The mc were the biggest wingers during the pandemic - we have ways of avoiding tax because we can pay for accountants but we want government help because, because, because.

Policy ignores the people it is intended for. Equality law is useless if you are poor and white but it is a band waggon the policy makers cannot leave. It will become a behemoth (has become) and eventually will be turned away from because although it has created masses of jobs for the mc it hasn't aided equality, in fact it may have made things worse.

Article in the Times this morning, students are ditching arts degrees and going for medecine. Maybe they are up to their necks in having 'ideology' pumped at them. Kids are just like us, they know a band waggon when they see one. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/university-students-ditch-arts-degrees-and-opt-for-medicine-w63vnzrxd sorry don't have a share token

Didn't sleep well last night....wonder if this makes sense Brew

Zinco · 04/02/2021 07:45

This thread got me interested in the EU's position on trans rights.

As far as I can find out from this study and its recommendations:

ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/lesbian-gay-bi-trans-and-intersex-equality/studies-and-research-lgbti-equality_en

(The first PDF, recommendations come right at the end of it.)

It seems the EU is supporting things like:

(1) Swift recognition of gender identity based on "self determination", and not needing a medical process. So you don't have to be on hormones or anything to get your passport changed to female.

(2) Governments need to take measures against hate speech and discourses which encourage discrimination.

(3) Groups such as the media and religious communities, have to demonstrate respect for gender identities, (exactly how far they want to encourage/force this, I don't know).

Well,.you have to put up with a few tiny issues, to get all the wonderful benefits of the European Union.

PutYourBackIntoit · 04/02/2021 10:18

I completely agree OP.

As a GC person who voted thoughtfully to Leave, I have had to be very selective about who to get into discussions with about both topics.
My best friend who tolerates my GC views (she was senior at Tavi) refused to hear me out on my reasoning for voting leave. It has been a really sad time for me.

I've had to be very selective about who to have discussions with, and how open to be.

However, I've had wonderful, engaging conversations with people I don't know very well. I think this shows that we're living in a society where talking openly to each other is something many of us fear, unless we can remain anonymous.

I have found it easier to be GC that to be a 'Brexiteer' as at least there is a safe space on MN and like minded people willing to speak out on Twitter. I have not found such a space for my views on the EU.

Fwiw I consider myself liberal, I work for NHS and I love Europe.

ConsiderTheLobster · 04/02/2021 12:41

Hello, @PutYourBackIntoit, that's sad about your best friend. I have a number of friends I wouldn't really discuss either of these issues with at all now, and I agree that Brexit is probably worse than GC stuff in most circumstances.

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slitheringsnakes · 04/02/2021 12:57

PubYourBackIntoit: Do you still think that voting Brexit was the right thing to do? If you could go back in time, would you make the same decision?
How do you justify taking such a massive risk with your vote?

ConsiderTheLobster · 04/02/2021 12:58

@Zinco, that's very interesting. I'd never thought to look. We evil UK TERF women are at odds with a lot of other places, as we know...

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