Who else sees the parallels between "nasty right wing GC" slurs and "nasty right wing Brexiter" slurs?

[ConsiderTheLobster]

If you're GC, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're actually GC because you've looked into this deeply and are trying to protect vulnerable people (women, non-conforming children, and trans people).

If you voted Brexit, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're sceptical of the EU because it constitutes a corporate-favouring trading block, poses barriers to nationalisation of services such as railways, has deeply racist immigration policies (permitting free movement of predominantly white Europeans whilst restricting the movement of others), keeps people in many non-EU (e.g., African) countries locked into unfavourable trade deals, and reduces the influence of genuine democracy.

If you're GC and you work at a university, in the NHS or in left-leaning media, you're scared to say so. If you voted Brexit and you work at a university, in the NHS or in left-leaning media, you're scared to say so.

There are of course some genuine bigots who oppose self ID because they're transphobic. And there are genuine bigots who voted Brexit because they are racist. In each case, these are the narratives peddled by certain media about, respectively, all GCs, and all Brexit-supporters.

So - how many of us GCs still berate the nasty fascist Brexiters?

If the left had taken a different approach and actually listened to working class people's concerns rather than denouncing them as bigots, things could have been very different. But they seem to ptefer to lecture.

I see parallels with some GC feminists now thinking that the GRA should be repealed. (I don't personally but I sort of get it).

And GC feminists turning their back in Labour, which I wholeheartedly agree with!

I can, and the same with immigration and refugees

Yeah, there are certainly parallels. Being both a GCer & a Brexiteer, feeling rather vindicated lately -although it’s been a shit few years being vilified, lectured, and losing friends.

Hope those that slurred us on both counts might have a reflection moment.

As a Remainer TirisfalPumpkin who years ago realised we need to respect the operation of democracy, the past 48 hours have been hilarious to witness. We actually had Michael Gove reaching out to the EU to help them in their time of difficulty. This is a clear illustration that saying the EU is the only path to salvation is an act of faith.

i would say TRA's and Brexiteers are very similar ime.

ask a tra a question- whats a woman, how are you defining a transwoman and they dont reply just insults and fury. i had exact the same experiences when asking brexiteers what the benefits of brexit are- i see the same easy dismissing of science/facts too- the 'feels' trump the 'logic'.

i observed they used the same methods: simple slogans, thought-terminating catch-phrases 'we won, get over it' ' tw are w' ' brexit means brexit' tr are human rights'- and the same reluctance to get into proper discussion- same name-calling in lieu of debate - i was called a leftie, corbyn fan brainwashed by msm, by brexiteers repeatedly (even though im not!) so....

i think fairer and perhaps truer to say is there is in modern ie sm discussion this failure to listen to arguments 'from people not like us' and to over-simplify eg 'i agree with them on this therefore i must agree with them on this as well' when actually we should question all that they say and come to our own conclusions. calling people racists, anti-semites, bigots, karens etc before theyve even expressed their views is going to get us nowhere. - its purity politics that are not good, and perhaps we're all guilty a bit of that.

I don't think that comparison works. Pretty certain every poll to do with Brexit shows that there is a correlation between right wing voters and leave voters. Whereas GC, having its roots in radical feminism, skews more left wing. Obviously there are exceptions with both, but calling Leave voters right wing is largely accurate, and calling GC people right wing is largely inaccurate. The latter is done to gaslight.

I don't think that comparison works. Pretty certain every poll to do with Brexit shows that there is a correlation between right wing voters and leave voters

Isn’t that because working class people who have traditionally voted Labour are now voting Tory for the first time in their lives because the Tories were the only party who said that they would honour the referendum without holding a 2nd vote. Also I can remember straight straight after Brexit when they showed how the various counties had voted, my county, which is about as safe a Tory seat as you can get, had voted to remain, whilst the northern and midland areas that are normally Labour areas were largely Leave.

Maybe not so much the Brexit issue, but I certainly see a parallel with the left-wing treatment of the right-wing:

(1) It's acceptable to use violence against those on the political right, and also against "TERFs". You see some quite open support for violence from some on the left. (And many others they don't seem to say much to condemn such tactics.) It's only a milkshake or a punch... Nazis like Nigel Farage deserve it. It's really just "self defence" to strike first. Their words are the real violence that people have to be protected from.

(2) We don't need to debate our opponents, because our opponents are hateful and acting in bad faith, and/or violating human rights. Rather our opponents should be censored and deplatformed for the public good.

These people obviously feel that they aren't be represented but there is no desire to engage.

I don't think that is true. Papers like the NY Times run article after article trying to understand Trump voters. There is no similar attempt to engage from the other side.

I understand what the OP is saying, but Trump is only comparable to Brexit if everyone who voted for Brexit really was voting for Nigel Farage.

I also agree with FifteenToes that people who support Remain are likely to be pragmatic centrists.

It's certainly not true that every racist voted Leave, given the massive problem of antisemitism in some groups that ID as left wing Remainers, not to mention their treatment of people who are BAME but don't have what they see as the 'correct' political affiliations. Truth is, many of these are stories that people make up to justify their own feelings and actions, especially now when events may be proving them wrong so they need to double down. Myself, I was a committed Remainer and Rejoiner but after the EU's behaviour over the last week or so I'm definitely reviewing my stance. But then I'm not ideologically fixed on one position and I don't mind being wrong, that's just life.

As for being GC, (which in truth I'm not, I'm a bog-standard feminist), it's a little unlikely that humans, unique among mammals, have suddenly become able to change sex and I'm 100% certain that female humans exist as proved by the fact we're all sitting here, so I haven't got any patience with absurd rambling diatribes to the contrary.

@Signalbox

I don't think that comparison works. Pretty certain every poll to do with Brexit shows that there is a correlation between right wing voters and leave voters

Isn’t that because working class people who have traditionally voted Labour are now voting Tory for the first time in their lives because the Tories were the only party who said that they would honour the referendum without holding a 2nd vote. Also I can remember straight straight after Brexit when they showed how the various counties had voted, my county, which is about as safe a Tory seat as you can get, had voted to remain, whilst the northern and midland areas that are normally Labour areas were largely Leave.

I think one of the problems here is the vagueness of the term "right wing". I don't know how it was defined in the polls MedusasBadHairDay but generally speaking, right wing can mean favouring a capitalist free market over socialist government control; or it can also refer to a bunch of social attitudes like conservatism about family and role of women, sexuality, race and - most importantly here - immigration.

What the Tories worked out is that a good deal of the people who traditionally voted Labour for economic reasons are actually social conservatives, particularly on the issue of immigration which was weaponised for Brexit.

Your county is not unique or surprising - plenty of Tories voted Remain in 2016 (not sure of exact proportion) because they as much as anybody want the economy to thrive. But given a choice in 2019 between Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn, they saw it as the less bad option. Whereas enough Labour voters were both pro-Brexit and had been so poisoned by then to believe that Jeremy Corbyn Will Eat Their Babies, to swing the other way.

Not everyone who voted for brexit is racist but everyone who is racist voted for brexit

You what?

What evidence? Who checked every single voter and did a full screening on their views? How was this assessed? What was the definition of racism and the threshold?

What you're talking about here is your personal categorisation, your own prejudices and your own sweeping generalisations, and that's all.

It's no different to the point in the OP: its become terribly fashionable to employ lazy, sweeping namecalling and generalisations to try and cast emotional slurs on others to one's own benefit. It's a political trick from the Labour/early Cameron era, and it achieves very little except to demonstrate that those employing it are lazy in their thinking, high on their emotions and marketing desires, and doing their best to avoid engaging with real issues.

Society's going to have to get back to grips with properly unpacking, discussing and thinking about issues instead of trying to gallop over the bits it doesn't like shouting "oooh it's a squirrel!"

The attack first and slur approach is the problem.

An unwillingness to debate a defend your views suggests insecurity. “I am right because everyone says so, and anyone who doesn’t is racist/a term/fascist” only gets you so far. At some point you will get it wrong and have opinions that don’t reflect the current orthodoxy, or that orthodoxy will change. Owen Jones...are you taking note?

What the Tories worked out is that a good deal of the people who traditionally voted Labour for economic reasons are actually social conservatives, particularly on the issue of immigration which was weaponised for Brexit

I think this is right.

Some quite vocal people on the Left have spent the last 4/5 years calling socially conservative but traditionally Labour supporters either thick or racist. The result is that enough of them vote Conservative to make a difference.

Now the same thing is happening with women who are being called bigots for standing up for themselves and now increasingly I am seeing people saying that they are politically homeless or threatening to vote Conservative when they have never voted Tory in their lives.

I think ultimately it is easier for the Tories to move fiscally to the left (appealing to socially conservative Labour supporters) than it will be for the left to move socially/ideologically to the right and that's because every issue is a moral issue so there is no room for manoeuvre.

“a terf” not term.

I am pleased auto correct does not recognise “terf”!

Labour voters were both pro-Brexit and had been so poisoned by then to believe that Jeremy Corbyn Will Eat Their Babies, to swing the other way.
How about the Labour voters had watched over a period of years the traditional working class party (who used to understand that mass immigration leads to an oversupply of Labour in the market pushing down wages), focus on "Identity politics" instead of fighting for them. No need for "poisoning" Labour did that quite comfortably themselves by taking for granted their voters (not to mention the attempts to frustrate the Referendum result).

How about the Labour voters had watched over a period of years the traditional working class party (who used to understand that mass immigration leads to an oversupply of Labour in the market pushing down wages), focus on "Identity politics" instead of fighting for them.

And instead of listening to them, understanding and unpicking their concerns and addressing them, they experienced Labour simply calling them names and dismissing them as untouchables.

They voted accordingly.

Precisely. Insulting and slurring people is not going to win you their loyalty.

And in that way both debates, though different in themselves, were similar. The style is awry. The substance needs to be debated.

How about the Labour voters had watched over a period of years the traditional working class party (who used to understand that mass immigration leads to an oversupply of Labour in the market pushing down wages), focus on "Identity politics" instead of fighting for them. No need for "poisoning" Labour did that quite comfortably themselves by taking for granted their voters (not to mention the attempts to frustrate the Referendum result).

I'm curious about this as it's a big part of the post-Brexit soul searching.

What exactly should Labour have done to "fight for" the working class, that they haven't done, over the last decade while they haven't been in power?

Or is it that the Blair/Brown administration prior to that didn't do enough? It's a double-edged sword that one: You can either have a Labour program like Blair's that largely leaves the foundations of neo-liberalism intact but makes some attempt at redistribution and well-funded public services within them (with some success it has to be said, in things working tax credits, minimum wage legislation and massive improvements to NHS waiting times). Or you can have one like Corbyn's that aims to radically confront those foundations and redistribute not just wealth but economic power itself at a more basic level.

If it's the first, then Labour are "not doing enough". If the second, we can't possibly vote for them because they're "loony left" and will bankrupt the country and Jeremy Corbyn has a beard.

Immigration is a social issue as well as an economic one but what both Blair and Cameron realised is that it's highly beneficial to a growing economy and results in much more being made available for public service provision (hence those NHS improvements, and schools as well) than it takes out. What Corbyn realised (but wasn't able to win the debate with over the soundbites) was that the stagnating living standards of the working class are not caused by immigration, they're caused by Tory economic policy and austerity combined with deliberate undermining of the trade union movement.

People want a radical socialist Labour government that also keep Murdoch and the Daily Mail happy and doesn't change anything that's going to scare anyone. Well guess what: they're not going to get it. So they vote for Johnson and say "Ha! Take that, Labour! We'll starve ourselves to death and it'll be YOUR FAULT!"

BelleHathor
I agree with every single word of your post. The Labour party has totally lost touch with the working class. The worst aspects of the Blair/Brown reign were the Iraq war and the failure to end zero hours contracts.

joanwalmsley.org.uk/en/article/2015/1049268/labour-s-20-year-old-promise-on-zero-hours-contracts

I agree; as the majority of the country voted for Brexit the voters cannot all have been right-wing bigots but were smeared as racist and ultra right-wing to outlaw the viewpoint of many for the sake of a fringe few.
Same with anyone who does not agree with the policies of trans rights activists, they are trying to claim Left wing politics are synonymous with trans rights and there is no space for a debate,
as anyone who doesn't agree falls into a category of toxic bigot.

[quote andyoldlabour]BelleHathor
I agree with every single word of your post. The Labour party has totally lost touch with the working class. The worst aspects of the Blair/Brown reign were the Iraq war and the failure to end zero hours contracts.

joanwalmsley.org.uk/en/article/2015/1049268/labour-s-20-year-old-promise-on-zero-hours-contracts[/quote]
So the solution to that is to vote for the party that will deregulate th economy even more, and for a Brexit that they're going to use precisely to help them do that, so that there can be more zero hours contracts on even worse terms, right?

Instead of for the Labour party under Corbyn, who vociferously opposed the Iraq war and got an end to zero hours contracts into Labour's manifesto.

FifteenToes
Much as I originally liked JC, he was unelectable, couldn't control the anarchic Momentum and would probably have been dumped by his party had he managed to win. We would then have had a Labour party, spearheaded by Starmer, Nandy and the crew, totally immersed in minority rights, ignoring the working class - exactly what Blair/Brown did. Politicians from every party prove themselves time after time to be lying, cheating weasels. As for JC's end to zero hours contracts, we had that promise in '95 from Blair.

I don't think Jeremy Corbyn was unpopular because he had a beard. I think he was unpopular because he represented the 'noblesse oblige' wing of the Labour Party - people who have grown up with wealth and security but look down on people who want a good car and foreign holidays.