Who else sees the parallels between "nasty right wing GC" slurs and "nasty right wing Brexiter" slurs?

[ConsiderTheLobster]

If you're GC, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're actually GC because you've looked into this deeply and are trying to protect vulnerable people (women, non-conforming children, and trans people).

If you voted Brexit, you know that a vocal majority within certain liberal left circles will denounce you as a right wing bigot. You know that you're sceptical of the EU because it constitutes a corporate-favouring trading block, poses barriers to nationalisation of services such as railways, has deeply racist immigration policies (permitting free movement of predominantly white Europeans whilst restricting the movement of others), keeps people in many non-EU (e.g., African) countries locked into unfavourable trade deals, and reduces the influence of genuine democracy.

If you're GC and you work at a university, in the NHS or in left-leaning media, you're scared to say so. If you voted Brexit and you work at a university, in the NHS or in left-leaning media, you're scared to say so.

There are of course some genuine bigots who oppose self ID because they're transphobic. And there are genuine bigots who voted Brexit because they are racist. In each case, these are the narratives peddled by certain media about, respectively, all GCs, and all Brexit-supporters.

So - how many of us GCs still berate the nasty fascist Brexiters?

I find this thread bizarre. I'm GC and left wing. Despite their slightly more GC stance, the Tories in general do very little to make the lives of women in this country, or anywhere for that matter, easier. I would find it very difficult to vote for them. Labour, when in power, did help women - I saw it with my own eyes - single mothers able to live above the poverty line thanks to working tax credits, public services receiving proper funding, greater access to education. Based on the attitudes on this thread and the general direction the country is going regarding Scottish independence, we have a high chance of NEVER having anything other than a Tory government in England. The way FPTP works and the way they organise constituency boundaries works very well for them, so the Tories won't ever push for PR or a more representative system of any kind. I don't think anyone interested in a healthy democracy could say that a de-facto one party state is a good situation.
And about Brexit ... it's a terrible idea - always was. It's based on similar lies to the TWAW arguments. Leave means leave ... Brexit means Brexit ... but Brexit was never defined - its only now that we're starting to see what it really is. You can't leave a trading block and expect the exact same benefits. The EU have behaved badly over the last week. It's an imperfect entity. We can no longer have any influence over how it evolves. Fortunately the EU reversed their terrible decision. I also take issue with having to pander to the subset of Brexiters who are racists. Why should they be respected? Would you also indulge misogynist views? The trans issue worries me ... but it wouldn't induce me to vote Tory because they have brought us Austerity and Brexit ... and a chauvinist PM who has no interest in women unless it plays to base.

Also I can remember straight straight after Brexit when they showed how the various counties had voted, my county, which is about as safe a Tory seat as you can get, had voted to remain, whilst the northern and midland areas that are normally Labour areas were largely Leave

The class element in voting Remain / Leave gets ignored. I'm well off middle- class, mixing socially and at work with pretty much exclusively the same group. My clients are exclusively in that group. Every single one of them will be higher rate and top rate tax payers. I haven't heard any of these people say that they voted for Brexit or that Brexit was anything other than a disaster. I'd also put a large amount of money on most of them (probably all of them) not being left- wing.

I'm a right wing Remainer. The idea that all Remainers are lovely, cuddly, lefties concerned with other people is nonsense. Many Remainers voted remain for nothing more than personal self- interest.

user1471448556
You think the Tories were the cause of "austerity measures" - please think again. I have studied European politics since before the Greek economic crisis. The EU is a very powerful political entity, which has had some very dubious figures at its head, past and present.
I was a lifelong Labour voter until a couple of years ago. I don't see many ordinary people cheering unlimited immigration, which has caused the driving down of ordinary wages. If there was wage parity across the EU, there would be no mass immigration.
Austerity measures:

www.redpepper.org.uk/the-trouble-with-being-both-anti-austerity-and-pro-eu/

www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-austerity-measures-driving-millions-into-poverty/

@andyoldlabour

FifteenToes Much as I originally liked JC, he was unelectable, couldn't control the anarchic Momentum and would probably have been dumped by his party had he managed to win. We would then have had a Labour party, spearheaded by Starmer, Nandy and the crew, totally immersed in minority rights, ignoring the working class - exactly what Blair/Brown did. Politicians from every party prove themselves time after time to be lying, cheating weasels. As for JC's end to zero hours contracts, we had that promise in '95 from Blair.

No, Starmer etc. would have been nowhere. A win for JC would have been a (miraculous) win for the left of Labour who would have massively consolidated their position.

Labour's manifesto, and the positions that Corbyn has always defended, were full of things to improve conditions for the working class. If you won't even vote for them when they're on offer, because "all politicians are liars", then what's the point? You can say what you like about Corbyn's politics but this is just lazy escapism. One thing he does have is an exceptional level of consistent integrity about what he believes.

Do you remember the scandal about MP's expenses some years back? The year that that broke and they published and scrutinised all the expenses that MPs had claimed, guess who had the lowest in the entire house? Jeremy Corbyn. One year's expenses: A toner cartridge.

This still doesn't address the real issue though: EVEN Blair and Brown, for all their shortcomings, did more for the working class than Johnson and Rees-Mogg ever did or ever will do. So EVEN IF Labour slipped back to that level (which they wouldn't have) it still would have been better. Your example of zero hours contracts is a good one: how can it possibly make sense to protest against deregulation of the labour market by voting for the party that is going to deregulate it the MOST?

I don't get it.

I find this thread bizarre. I'm GC and left wing. Despite their slightly more GC stance, the Tories in general do very little to make the lives of women in this country, or anywhere for that matter, easier. I would find it very difficult to vote for them. Labour, when in power, did help women - I saw it with my own eyes - single mothers able to live above the poverty line thanks to working tax credits, public services receiving proper funding, greater access to education. Based on the attitudes on this thread and the general direction the country is going regarding Scottish independence, we have a high chance of NEVER having anything other than a Tory government in England. The way FPTP works and the way they organise constituency boundaries works very well for them, so the Tories won't ever push for PR or a more representative system of any kind. I don't think anyone interested in a healthy democracy could say that a de-facto one party state is a good situation.

That's a done deal I'm afraid. The Tories have done, and have plans for, various little steps to destroy any possibility of democratic opposition - like requiring photo ID for voting. Then there's the big one of boundary changes, which will kick in before the next election and make any change impossible. We have "Fox News UK" about to open up and turbo-charge the propaganda effort which, as you can see in this thread and elsewhere, has already been so successful in getting people to vote irrationally against their own interests. And as you say Scotland likely to jump ship (if they have any sense).

It's over. But hey, at least the working class won't have to put up with "identity politics" while they're working their shit zero-hours jobs with no holiday, sick pay, health care or chance of a decent education.

FifteenToes - as you say, it's probably too late to change the direction of travel, but there is hope. The younger generation have been absolutely shafted by the Tories. They grew up during austerity - went to schools starved of funding to the point that teachers were funding stationery and even toilet roll out of their own pockets (true story), then face extortionate tuition fees, add in Brexit (which they had no say in - too young), and Covid - not within the gov's control but which the UK gov let get to such high levels we've spent weeks on end in lockdown and so many have died. I would hope they would get active and get voting. And for the rest of us ... don't you at least want a bloody change. Can you honestly look back to 2010 and say things are better now (taking Covid out of the equation)? If you're a right-wing GC feminist, and can't stomach voting for any of the progressive parties, then spoil your ballot. Don't be part of our drift towards a one-party nation run by rich elite Etonites.

[quote andyoldlabour]user1471448556
You think the Tories were the cause of "austerity measures" - please think again. I have studied European politics since before the Greek economic crisis. The EU is a very powerful political entity, which has had some very dubious figures at its head, past and present.
I was a lifelong Labour voter until a couple of years ago. I don't see many ordinary people cheering unlimited immigration, which has caused the driving down of ordinary wages. If there was wage parity across the EU, there would be no mass immigration.
Austerity measures:

www.redpepper.org.uk/the-trouble-with-being-both-anti-austerity-and-pro-eu/

www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-austerity-measures-driving-millions-into-poverty/[/quote]
Thank you Andy the way the Greeks were treated by the Troika was an absolute scandal with the IMF standing by and not advocating for a more realistic plan. Yanis Varoufakis could have been one of the best finance ministers ever. I remember thinking with friends like this (Italy and Portugal can also be added).
I'm just like you an old school Tony Benn supporter of unions Labour voter. I don't know who this modern party is.
The commitment to Globalism and labelling populism as nationalism is and will keep being their downfall. I remember an LBC caller saying that before the migration of A8 countries his partner earned £14ph as a carer in 2003. She earns minimum wage today. Tax Credits shouldn't be needed to top up a wage.
Also I can't stand the rude condescending tone, "You didn't know what you were voting for" "You were lied to" "You're a racist" (Lady Nugee and her Union Jack Tweet) "You'll come to regret this". I imagine the Answer to be "I have been f**cking drowning for years my wages are falling rent rising, I voted for you but you were more concerned with Jack wanting to be Jackie"
m.youtube.com/watch?v=nGt82RFfg3U

Also I can't stand the rude condescending tone, "You didn't know what you were voting for" "You were lied to" "You're a racist" (Lady Nugee and her Union Jack Tweet) "You'll come to regret this". I imagine the Answer to be "I have been fcking drowning for years my wages are falling rent rising,
I do agree. I sometimes wonder what might have happened if after the referendum result more remainers (I was one and still am) had asked, 'Why did you do that?' instead of yelling 'idiot!' and 'racist!'
It wouldn't have changed the result but maybe we wouldn't now have an 80-odd seat Tory majority and a cabinet chosen mainly for their Brexit views rather than for their talents.

Also I can't stand the rude condescending tone, "You didn't know what you were voting for" "You were lied to" "You're a racist" (Lady Nugee and her Union Jack Tweet) "You'll come to regret this".

The problem is at least some of those things are true. You were lied to, and you will come to regret it. What do you want people to do, tell you that life in a Tory one-party state with no EU checks and balances is going to be a big lovely bed of roses?

imagine the Answer to be "I have been fcking drowning for years my wages are falling rent rising, I voted for you but you were more concerned with Jack wanting to be Jackie

The Labour party's big problem is that it has to try and unify some very disparate social groups, primarily the working class "old Labour" tendency you describe and the middle class, London-centric idealistic identity politics tendency. None of those groups are large enough to gain power on their own in our FPTP system, so their only hope lies in seeing that they have more in common with each other than they do with the Tories, and accepting that no serious electoral coalition will ever be perfect.

But the Tories have done a great job of making people feel they have more to fear from a transgender person wanting to determine their own pronouns, than they do from a bunch of sociopathic Old Etonians seizing the chance to destroy the welfare state, public services, trade unionism and working conditions and syphoning off the country's wealth into their offshore bank accounts. Divide and conquer.

But the Tories have done a great job of making people feel they have more to fear from a transgender person wanting to determine their own pronouns

This issue is a lot more important to women's rights than just which pronoun to use. The Tories have gradually come on board the GC position but it has certainly not been unopposed within the party.
Labour have been losing touch with the working class vote for years, they seem obsessed with their own identity politics agenda and disinterested in their core voters.

The Tories have largely been avoiding issues over the gender identity ideology whenever they can. It's Labour that's been putting it front and centre. There's some weird back to front posting on this thread.

Labour aren't owed our votes. They shouldn't get them through guilt-tripping about how people shouldn't vote for the evil Tories. If Labour wants to be the government they need to offer something that appeals to enough people to win a General Election.

I don’t think they’re the same thing at all. The no.1 reason people profess to have voted for brexit is immigration.

None of the things you say op are even true. The EU has no policies at all on immigration from outside the EU. They certainly don’t favour corporates - most of our employment law comes from the EU. They are the reason we have holiday pay and a whole load of other things. We were never “locked into any unfavourable trade deals” either. There are state aid rules but they don’t necessarily prevent nationalisation of things such as railways.

So if those things really were the reason you voted for brexit, then you were misinformed. But I suspect they were not.

They are the reason we have holiday pay and a whole load of other things

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holidays_with_Pay_Act_1938

It disturbs me greatly how political parties I have much affinity with - ie The Green Party are so happy to throw women’s rights under a bus. I’m sick of the woke bro’s ... but I’m equally sick of Brexit and the current Tory party, who have veered so far to the right, some of their policies seem more like BNP policies. I have Tory friends of the old ilk - the one nation, pro the union, pro business types. I’m not fully on board with their attitudes towards the social system, but I have more in common with them than I do with Lexiters and woke Bro’s. To their credit, these people won’t vote Tory again due to Brexit ... but not sure any other party represents them. I feel the same - I am a pro-European, GC feminist. I literally have no voice in Parliament - the Tories love Brexit, Labour have said the Brexit question is over, even the Lib Dem’s have gone all soft on the Europe question ... and as for women’s rights - most of them have thrown us under a bus and we’re not even allowed to complain. Even the WEP have sold out on us. The Tories only speak up for us when it serves a purpose. They couldn’t give a shit about women’s rights in the main, they only get worked up about them when it serves another purpose. Like the abuse scandals when it was Asian men - up in arms about poor vulnerable girls. They normally couldn’t give a crap about those girls. They only care about women when there is a additional benefit - never just for the girls/women.

"The problem is at least some of those things are true. You were lied to, and you will come to regret it. What do you want people to do, tell you that life in a Tory one-party state with no EU checks and balances is going to be a big lovely bed of roses?"

And there was a proper "check and balance" on the power of the EU?

Remember when the EU lost national referendums on the European Constitution, but just went forward anywaywithout holding another referendummaking pretty much the same changes but doing it via amendment to previous treaties? It's OK to openly ignore the result of national referendums?

You really need an extra level of politicians to make things good? So our own politicians are mostly bastards of course, but the solution is even more politicians? That apparently aren't fans of democracy?

@CayrolBaaaskin

I don’t think they’re the same thing at all. The no.1 reason people profess to have voted for brexit is immigration.

None of the things you say op are even true. The EU has no policies at all on immigration from outside the EU. They certainly don’t favour corporates - most of our employment law comes from the EU. They are the reason we have holiday pay and a whole load of other things. We were never “locked into any unfavourable trade deals” either. There are state aid rules but they don’t necessarily prevent nationalisation of things such as railways.

So if those things really were the reason you voted for brexit, then you were misinformed. But I suspect they were not.

This post is a near-perfect example of what I was referring to. It's based on a mis-reading of the OP, a misunderstanding of the nature of the EU, and is finished off with a nice little statement about how the poster knows voters' reasons better than the actual voters. Brilliant.

With Jeremy Corbyn, yeah, he was very likely sincere in his politics, but I suspect that most people didn't trust him not to destroy the economy.

The other thing, he really was a bit "loony left" for some people's taste. Remember him calling the Islamist terror group Hamas his "friends"? He tried to spin that as working to bring people together, working for peace, by talking to the different sides. No, watch the video. He didn't just call them "friends". Corbyn was openly defending a terror group. Presumably because he sees Israel as the big bad bully, he was willing to get into bed with freaking jihadist terrorists.

It is of course literally true that people didn't know what they were voting for, because we didn't have a deal at that point - we could have chosen to stay in the European Economic Area (like Norway) or gone for a completely hard Brexit/no deal, or anything in between.

There are also inevitably unintended consequences. The Leave vote led to Cameron resigning, two general elections and the useless Boris Johnson running the country. It meant that so much time was spent on discussing Brexit that we didn't have time to discuss other things such as pandemic preparation (www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/13/boris-johnson-scrapped-cabinet-pandemic-committee-six-months/). Another unintended consequence might be an independent Scotland, because the Scots voted to remain in the UK. There will also be consequences of one sort or another in Northern Ireland, including (worst case scenario) civil war or perhaps reunification with the republic.

If you voted Remain, you were more or less voting for things to stay the same. Though you could probably argue that we don't know how the EU will develop and change in future, and we could have ended up being tied into a structure that was authoritarian and/or incompetent.

You really think that that's why people voted for Brexit? Yeah right. Good try.

@AradiaGC

I'm a GC Brexiter who works at a university so I'm going to say I agree completely.

The anti-Brexit types usually go for name-calling and assumptions of bad faith, while the anti-GC ones use violent threats and the language of disgust (dirt, disease, vermin) so I'd say the latter are worse. Both seem to deliberately and emotively misunderstand arguments though, especially around 'you must hate trans people/foreign people'.

Yes, this.

I hope you haven't had too hard a time of it, @AradiaGC.

@nauticant

everyone who is racist voted for brexit

Like others I'll always flag this one up as lazy. It's one of those statements people make as a substitute for critical thought. We're forever arguing against that approach in FWR.

The quote incidentally is from Will Self who likes to say provocative things to start a row, it's how he makes his living.

I hadn't known this was Will Self, @nauticant. Does make sense, though.

I've seen it thrown around by a ludicrous number of, e.g., academics. Mind boggling.

There are benefits from being GC and what you/we advocate- protection of women and girls in safe spaces, fair competitive sport, lesbians being recognised are the main ones I think.

By contrast are there any benefits from Brexit other than blue passports?

I don't think the two are exactly the same. I also think those who denounce people who voted for Brexit are as many on the left as those who think it is OK to accept those born and remaining with a penis to be in women's safe spaces such as changing rooms.

"Right wing" and "far right" definitions have no real meaning anymore. Anyone centrist or slightly right of centre, actually even slightly left of centre are now determined to be far right and thus their views arguments can be immediately dismissed and reviled. This is how very left agendas and wokeism are being forced though. Until those definitions become stable again GC people and Brexiters will never be listened to or worked with in any meaningful way and can expect to only be vilified and ridiculed.

@Helmetbymidnight
i would say TRA's and Brexiteers are very similar ime
It's good to know how you think, I'll feel easier ignoring you in future. I used to read your posts with interest and enjoy your views. No more, yours is the type of bigotry that stops me from ever referring to the fact that I voted for Brexit.

GC people have strong, common sense arguments.
When you ask Brexiters for any benefits to Brexit, they can rarely come up with anything at all. Many Brexiters appear to have voted for Brexit based on emotions only.
There's no comparison really.