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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Oh god, Labour again.

143 replies

fakenina · 28/01/2021 16:02

They are really determined to jump the shark on this, arn't they Sad

labour.org.uk/about/how-we-work/nec-statement-women-shortlists-womens-officers-minimum-quotas-women/

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 29/01/2021 05:49

I'm not in favour of quotas or All Women Shortlists. I see three big problems with them.

  1. They fail to consider or address the underlying causes as to why women aren't becoming MPs. In other words, AWS tackle the symptoms, not the cause. This has been proven by the inclusion of mtf transitioners onto the shortlists. Many of the reasons why women might find it difficult to become an MP (esp anything to do with childcare) would almost not apply to an mtf transitioner. The fact that Labour don't seem to understand why AWS exist is concerning.
  1. I think they mean some people are less likely to take the women seriously: 'oh she's just there because she's a woman' - remember the 'Blair's Babes' label? Personally, I would never stand on an AWS and find the idea rather insulting. I would want to win 'fair and square', against all candidates including men. (I realise others view these shortlists differently).
  1. They open the door to other quotas and shortlists, e.g. shortlists for only disabled people or only lgbtq people or only people from a bame background. I'm all for widening access to politics. I don't consider a succession of PMs from Eton and other public schools to be in any way desirable. However, a succession of politicians that are there primarily because of their ability to meet tick-box criteria does not sound like a great way to solve the problem. It just undermines the achievements of candidates who are brilliant and who happen to be from an underrepresented background, while running the risk of allowing people through who never would have succeeded in an open race because they weren't good enough.

I don't think Keir Starmer is doing a good job. However, given that he at least demurred from signing a pledge that Nandy and RLB signed either without reading or understanding what they were signing, I still think he was the best of a bad bunch.

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 06:20

The proportions of Labour/Conservative MPs read differently depending on which figures you use because there are more Conservative MPs. 87/220 or 40% of female MPs are Conservative but that is only about a quarter of all Conservative MPs.

220/650 MPs are female so about a third.

fastwigglylines · 29/01/2021 06:28

THIS IS FAKE NEWS, people!

The statement is from 2019. Labour's changed the policy since then. No one's quite sure why it started circulating yesterday.

fastwigglylines · 29/01/2021 06:30

WPUK said:

"We have been assured that LP NEC statement in circulation is not current policy. It has been replaced by the manifesto of 2019 which is clear: “Ensure that the single-sex-based exemptions contained in the Equality Act 2010 are understood and fully enforced in service provision".

"We are not clear how this old statement has reappeared on the LP website but we understand it will be corrected."*

www.twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1354887828472270857

newyearnewname123 · 29/01/2021 06:32

If you want to consider whether all women's shortlists are making an impact it the figures you want are what proportion of each party's MPs are women, so 24% of conservative MPs and 51% of Labour MPs.

It's not about whether they are a good thing or not, it's the fact that Labour are quite happy to have men holding positions specifically for women, such as women's officers.

I am so fed up that no left-wing party is willing to stand up for women, even the WEP.

fastwigglylines · 29/01/2021 06:34

Actually, Labour Women's Declaration have found out the statement is from 2018.

www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=283389716454039&id=101732797953066

newyearnewname123 · 29/01/2021 06:35

So if it's not true, what's the criterion for being on an AWS or being a Women's Officer?

MegtheShark · 29/01/2021 06:41

[quote ListeningQuietly]Remember that although the Tories accept what women are, we are expected to know our place ....
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55844367[/quote]
But at least the Tory party aren’t trying to destroy our class completely! And we already know there are some allies in powerful positions in the Tory party.

We can’t fight back at all, ever, if we can’t even define the group being trampled.

I was a Labour voter until the last election. I will not vote for my daughters erasure, and as bad as I find some Tory policies (I’m disabled, and have had to fight at a tribunal to get back what I was entitled to) I still will put women’s rights first.

Every time. Even with this shot show of a government.

If Labour shows me even the slightest whiff that they can manage to figure out who has birthed every human being in history, I’ll return.

SunsetBeetch · 29/01/2021 07:04

[quote fastwigglylines]WPUK said:

"We have been assured that LP NEC statement in circulation is not current policy. It has been replaced by the manifesto of 2019 which is clear: “Ensure that the single-sex-based exemptions contained in the Equality Act 2010 are understood and fully enforced in service provision".

"We are not clear how this old statement has reappeared on the LP website but we understand it will be corrected."*

www.twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1354887828472270857[/quote]
How and why on earth has it reappeared on Labour's website then? They need to be looking into that!

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 07:04

@fastwigglylines

THIS IS FAKE NEWS, people!

The statement is from 2019. Labour's changed the policy since then. No one's quite sure why it started circulating yesterday.

It was still on their website as policy, so whether an oversight or deliberate, I think it is good that they have agreed it is wrong and that the site will be corrected.

I think official Starmer policy is ‘stay away from culture wars’. However I don’t think the Conservatives will allow him that option, so sooner or later he will need to state an opinion.

This would be so much easier if the test for supporting trans right wasn’t ‘TWAW’, which can’t be explained in any coherent way.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2021 08:31

How and why on earth has it reappeared on Labour's website then? They need to be looking into that!

They do.

fakenina · 29/01/2021 09:07

Ok, so panic over. It is an old statement,

presumerbly that has just not been updated? Hmm

Series of events from what I hear;

it had been ceased on by MSP, presumerbly to back up their position that there is no reasonable oppositon to replacing sex with gender? not sure if they were presenting it as a new thing or not.

Women trying to defend womens rights in Scotland quickly highlighted it to WPUK and Labour Women's Declaration who issued statements not knowing if this was a new hard line stance the NEC had taken while they thought noone was looking.

We have had confirmation that it is NOT policy and will be taken down. So fingers crossed.

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 29/01/2021 09:20

It only becomes Fake News
When Labour publish a statement saying that
Women are adult human females

Justhadathought · 29/01/2021 10:11

I suspect that some random staffer, working from home, decided to make something out of nothing...in order to align with the trends in the U.S - which the Guardian, amongst others, is very keen we should do.
Today's Guardian has a piece by OJ on how central the 'Culture Wars' are to " progressives" in the U.K.

I'm really sensing an acceleration, recently, in the mergence of the mouthpieces of the British left with the self styled 'progressives' of the U.S. The language, terminology, everything.

So ironic - given the traditional distaste and even hatred for all things American on the British left.

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 10:28

I think OJ’s article is laughably wrong BTW.

Joe Biden managed to hold together a coalition against Trump by avoiding culture war spats in a country where culture wars are not the same. I don’t see Biden mentioning abortion rights or maternity pay much.

It’s also easy to reverse an EO.

OJ needs to think more about Dec 2019.

bellinisurge · 29/01/2021 11:12

I've written to my Labour MP. Even if it is an older statement, it has not, to my knowledge, been replaced by a new one.

RozWatching · 29/01/2021 11:54

The Wayback Machine record of the page is interesting.
The statement was still up on 30 October 2019 when the general election was confirmed.
The next attempted snapshot was on 6 Dec - the page was not found.
On 13 December, the day after the election, the page is up again.
Coincidence?

stumbledin · 29/01/2021 14:38

Well if someone thought sticking this back up on the web site was some sort of back door method to put Labour on the TWAW side, it seems to have back fired. And made Labour (in its current reincarnation) as lets pretend their isn't a problem because we are all about "equality"! Sad

RozWatching · 29/01/2021 21:00

WPUK said:

"We have been assured that LP NEC statement in circulation is not current policy. It has been replaced by the manifesto of 2019 which is clear: “Ensure that the single-sex-based exemptions contained in the Equality Act 2010 are understood and fully enforced in service provision".

"We are not clear how this old statement has reappeared on the LP website but we understand it will be corrected."

It's still up.
Are they even talking about the same thing? The current statement with the same wording about 'self-identifying' women appears to have been on the website since at least October 2019 except for a brief period during the 2019 election campaign.

ChestnutStuffing · 29/01/2021 21:27

They fail to consider or address the underlying causes as to why women aren't becoming MPs. In other words, AWS tackle the symptoms, not the cause. This has been proven by the inclusion of mtf transitioners onto the shortlists. Many of the reasons why women might find it difficult to become an MP (esp anything to do with childcare) would almost not apply to an mtf transitioner. The fact that Labour don't seem to understand why AWS exist is concerning.

One possibility is that part of the reason for women not becoming involved is that they mistakenly think the work will not be compatible with parts of their lives like mothering. That might go some way to explaining why they were successful at increasing numbers, since as you say they don't change the basic situation.

If so, it might be possible to achieve more participation in other ways, for example I've seen places where they ran seminars for women who might be interested in getting involved, which mainly talked about the practical issues of political involvement.

On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if AWS might not mean people go out of their way to find women who will agree to stand, even if the women are sometimes not the highest caliber, because there are still many who have the various barriers that tend to affect women in place.

bellinisurge · 29/01/2021 22:08

Someone from my MP's office emailed me back with a ... "what statement do you mean ?" I found it online in moments and emailed it back.
He'll get back to me.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 30/01/2021 11:17

@Justhadathought

Labour has a proud record of championing equality for women of all backgrounds, including BAME women, LGBT+ women, disabled women and working class women

They've fallen into that habit that TRA activists have of labelling working class, disabled, black women as somehow not primarily women - but as types of women. We are supposed to believe that biological males can be just another type of woman.

Exactly this - same with the use of the word cis. That we are types of women with adjectives to describe us. This is the exact reason I refuse to type the word transwoman with a space. They are not a fucking type of woman.
howard97A · 30/01/2021 13:00

… I refuse to type the word transwoman with a space. They are not a fucking type of woman.

Perhaps we should just write it as “transwoman”?

Imnobody4 · 30/01/2021 13:07

Just seen this on Twitter from Lesbian Labour
LGBT+ Labour had a big fall out last week and Heather Peto (who had been co chair) did a flounce and sets up Labour Trans Equality saying LGBT+ was transphobic? The Trans Group demand recognition from the Labour Party? @LesbianLabour will continue to speak for Lesbians.

fakenina · 30/01/2021 13:33

@Imnobody4

Just seen this on Twitter from Lesbian Labour LGBT+ Labour had a big fall out last week and Heather Peto (who had been co chair) did a flounce and sets up Labour Trans Equality saying LGBT+ was transphobic? The Trans Group demand recognition from the Labour Party? *@LesbianLabour* will continue to speak for Lesbians.
Blimy, how extreme must they be if they consider LGBT+ Labour transphobic.

LGBT+ Labour are fanatical about TWAW, harrassing anyone who even looks like they might disagree.

This new group must be off the scale.

Btw, that individual in question been accused of harrassing women left right and center, so I wonder if they jumped before they were pushed? and the transphobia accusation is yet again to cover for getting cought out harrassing women.

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