In an ideal world...

[Whyistheteacold]

I'm not sure how to say this in a way that will make sense to others, so I hope what I am saying is clear! If not, please ask questions for clarification 😅 A year ago I was 100% on the TWAW side of thinking. I've followed a lot of the threads on this board and since having my own daughter, while I fully support transwomen and believe that if someone truly feels they were born in the wrong body they can and should be able to transition and have equal rights, I also understand and agree that women should be able to have their own private spaces without fear of being labeled a bigot. I feel that if someone genuinely identifies as a woman this should be allowed, but I also believe that women should be able to have a born woman examine them in a smear test for example. Largely because I care for the future safety of my daughter. And I hate that the word "woman" is slowly being cancelled in favour of offensive terms like "birthing body" or "bleeder." I hate that we are being reduced to our functions... I feel so conflicted and confused about protecting genuine transwomen, and also protecting the safety of women. So in an ideal world, how would you balance the rights of transwomen and the right to be a woman in a safe space in your opinions?

Ideal world scenario? Men look after all of those born male (however they present) and women look after all those born female (in a sex segregated sense) The law would come down very heavily indeed on those assaulting anyone in those spaces. Men should be saying ‘all men including those trans women are welcome in out space’.
I hope you understand what I mean.

I think a lot of the issues are not in our gift to solve. But ok if we're talking about an ideal world, if
men ever get their act together and sort out male violence and male sex offending and harassment then maybe we can talk.
Until then I think all we can do is carry on fighting to preserve single sex spaces.
I understand that transwomen also fear male violence but I'm afraid I'm not prepared to jeopardise the safety of women and girls. However
If trans people wish to argue for 3rd spaces then I would support them.

In an ideal world a man in a dress would consider himself to be widening the bandwidth of what being a man is like. He would not feel the need to take female hormones or have feminising surgeries. If he did, they would be the equivalent of tattoos, piercings, recreational drugs: something he does because it feels good, not something others around him are expected to validate as meaning anything else. And still he would be widening the bandwidth of what being a man is like.

And men would accept these unconventional men as men.

And children and adolescents would not be subjected to puberty blockers or criss sex hormones or surgical treatments, but to supportive psychological therapies including family therapy where needed, to help them understand themselves and feel safe as themselves.

And men's aggression and entitlement would not be women's problems to solve.

You'll need to define "genuine transwomen" if you want useful answers.

Working on the assumption that you mean traditional transsexuals, whose rejection of their birth sex was generally rooted in same-sex attraction in a hostile environment, we could balance rights by recognising them as transwomen (a particularly vulnerable subset of homosexual males) and treating them accordingly.

What we cannot do is balance rights while accepting the claim that this subset of males are literally female.

Heterosexual males identifying as women are another matter. To balance rights we must first differentiate between rights and unreasonable demands. No one has the right to compel others' speech or beliefs, no one has the right to violate the integrity of opposite-sex spaces, no one has the right to force lesbians to deny their sexual orientation - these are unreasonable demands to be permitted to violate others' rights.

When you set all that aside, what specific rights do males who identify as women need?

Thank you for the replies, I'm just about to eat dinner so I will read them properly and reply afterwarfs, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant by genuine transwomen. I mean someone who was born a male that genuinely feels they were born in the wrong body, and truly feels they are a woman. Someone who doesn't have ulterior motives to invade women's spaces or harm us

Someone who doesn't have ulterior motives to invade women's spaces or harm us

Very kind of them.

How are we to differentiate them from men who do have these motives?

I feel that if someone genuinely identifies as a woman this should be allowed

Why?

What does it mean to "identify as a woman" when someone is objectively a man?

Do you believe other characteristics should be changed if someone "genuinely" believes it? Can we choose our own age, for example, if we genuinely identify as older or younger?

I actually wish doctors had never invented these processes. I suspect it creates, rather than fulfils demand. What I have read about how these processes came about makes it sound like the doctors who pioneered this stuff were more keen on pushing the boundaries of science than anything - e.g. John Money and his experiments on children. Not very ethical.

Oh and I know that many these days don't even have surgical or hormonal work done, but I think the concept of "having a sex change" opened the door to the notion that you could just fully switch to being the opposite sex on demand.

someone who was born a male that genuinely feels they were born in the wrong body, and truly feels they are a woman

To balance rights this 'genuine feeling' must be recognised as a belief.

These males already have the right not to be discriminated against in housing, employment, education, access to health services, and so on. What additional rights do they require?

So in an ideal world, how would you balance the rights of transwomen and the right to be a woman in a safe space in your opinions?

This is not intended to be an exhaustive list, but
I would modify building regulations so that new buildings over a certain size (which size would be subject to discussion with experts) would be required to have additional single-occupancy toilets.

I would increase funding to the NHS to sort out bed shortages to the extent that nurses would always be able to assign a side-room to a trans patient or anyone particularly vulnerable.

Prison overcrowding is an issue that already needs solving, as it is, with known incidents of two or three men to a cell intended for one. While we're sorting that out, we can build units for trans prisoners in the relevant estate.

I would institute some kind of transgender friendly quality mark scheme, which would be granted to leisure facilities, public buildings and private businesses that provided additional private single-occupancy changing facilities and toilets.

Hmm, its hard, but I think someone suffering psychological distress should be given help to accept themselvs and navigate life without surgery.
Surgical modifications to the body are dangerous and are unlikely to solve any issues, espicially gender disphoria as no surgery will make you the opposite sex.

Other than that people should be able to live and dress as they like.

Bullying, namecalling and assult are already crimes, but they should be taken more seriously by the police, for everyone not just trans people.

The few single sex spaces should remain single sex spaces as they were made that way for very good reasons.

Surgical modifications to the body are dangerous and are unlikely to solve any issues

They're also considered unethical, as a first-line treatment for psychological distress.

And I'll add to Barracker's excellent list: in an ideal world we would have dismantled the sociological roots of dysphoria. In an ideal world there would be no need for specialist mental health support, because the adverse experiences leading to erroneous self-belief rooted in self-hatred would no longer occur.

Unfortunately this tends to be misinterpreted as "omg you want to eradicate trans ppl!!! which is very far from the truth, and demonstrates why these debates rarely get us anywhere.

I think, OP, it might be of use to you to consider whether your interest is in rights for a) people who self-describe as trans or b) people suffering from sexed-body dysmorphia.

What @Barracker said 💯!

@Whyistheteacold

Thank you for the replies, I'm just about to eat dinner so I will read them properly and reply afterwarfs, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant by genuine transwomen. I mean someone who was born a male that genuinely feels they were born in the wrong body, and truly feels they are a woman. Someone who doesn't have ulterior motives to invade women's spaces or harm us

Was very much of your opinion till I got radicalised on Mumsnet (still want a tee shirt, mnhq).

What I've come to realise is that your framing starts from the presumption that males should get what they want and women should budge up.

These days, I have sympathy for the feeling you describe, but I don't see it as something women are obliged to accommodate.

Neutral spaces, sure. But humans don't change sex and no amount of 'feeling', however genuine, entitles a biological male to a woman-only space, when doing so means some women won't be able to use it at all.

@NaturalBlondeYeahRight yes I do see what you mean. However, isn't that why women are not allowed to be called women anymore? Because we are catering for those who do not identify as women? But I agree.

@JellySlice I really like your initial response, the idea of widening what it is to me a man, it's given me a lot to consider that I hadn't before. and I truly don't think it is possible to differentiate from those who are genuine and those with ulterior motives, I guess that is why I am asking in an "ideal" world

@TyroTerf For me personally, the rights that men who identify as women need are the same as any other person. The right to be able to express themselves, to be safe, to live without fear of being attacked and so on. I do agree with you about differentiating between rights and demands, I guess that is what I am struggling with. Also I am no expert by any means!! And I will be honest I don't really understand the difference between self-described trans and sexed-body dysmorphia, this is something I think I need to look into.

@newyearnewname123 I don't really know what it means to identify as a woman, I think that I base it on the fact that I strongly identify as a woman (I am a born woman). And I imagine that if other people started telling me I was male, it would piss me right off, I don't really know what it means to be a woman but I know that I am one. I imagine that for someone who is genuinely transsexual, they strongly feel the same? This is obviously just me theorising. However I agree that it doesn't make sense to identify as another age/race etc. That's why I am struggling with the conflicting ideas in my head.

@PotholeParadies I think that your answer is similar to how I imagine things would be in my ideal scenario.

@teawamutu I think the same is happening to me so i'll also await a t-shirt.

this is something I think I need to look into.

It's something that needs a lot more sunlight, that's for sure!

We are told "you don't need to have dysphoria to be trans" - and some people who self-describe as trans are very much euphoric about their genitals.

The old-skool transsexuals who say "er, yes, you really do, we are trans because we have transitioned to cope with a crippling mh condition" are slurred and denigrated as 'truscum'; their right to quietly live their lives and access decent psychotherapy has been all but obliterated by the shouty non-dysmorphic people.

There's an excellent series of articles detailing the history of the phenomenon of transsexualism; I haven't got it saved, but this lot are awesome and now it's been mentioned someone will probably provide the link.

So, if you don't need to suffer any distress about your sexed body to be trans, what does trans mean?

Some people with dysphoria/dysmorphia identify as the opposite sex, but many more do not. Are this latter group 'trans'?

If there is no underlying MH condition, and 'trans' simply signifies that a person prefers to present themself in accordance with opposite sex stereotypes, is 'trans' actually a serious condition that requires special rights?

Or is it just another identity tied to preferred mode of dress? Do goths and punks get special rights too, beyond the right not to be discriminated against for how they choose to dress?

I don't really know what it means to be a woman but I know that I am one. I imagine that for someone who is genuinely transsexual, they strongly feel the same?

A person with anorexia may strongly feel that they are fat, may know that they are fat, but that does not change the material reality that they are actually so under weight that their body cannot function.

Would you consider it appropriate to support them in their belief? To accept it as fact because they believe it?

Would you welcome them at Weightwatchers?

Barracker may sound uncompromising but it is the only consistent position.

There is no objective measure for ‘genuine’ belief. Can you prove that someone really believes in God? Or the Easter bunny?

You ‘identify’ as a woman because you are one. It’s not the same as believing something that is objectively not true.

I'm empathetic to anyone who identifies as a woman who isn't a biological woman. I hope you find peace and happiness. I am more than happy you establish your spaces in the same way women have. These are, of course, different and separate.

I hope you don't have such a fight but suspect you will, because you are working on the premise that your spaces are established, when in fact they are not yet.

Today 18:55Daca
Barracker may sound uncompromising but it is the only consistent position.

No idea what Barracker said BC it's been deleted
This is part of the problem, any attempt to address why trans rights and women's rights clash leads to silencing/cancelling of women.

@Gncq

Today 18:55Daca Barracker may sound uncompromising but it is the only consistent position.

No idea what Barracker said BC it's been deleted
This is part of the problem, any attempt to address why trans rights and women's rights clash leads to silencing/cancelling of women.

Aw whit? It was a great post too.

@JellySlice

I don't really know what it means to be a woman but I know that I am one. I imagine that for someone who is genuinely transsexual, they strongly feel the same?

A person with anorexia may strongly feel that they are fat, may know that they are fat, but that does not change the material reality that they are actually so under weight that their body cannot function.

Would you consider it appropriate to support them in their belief? To accept it as fact because they believe it?

Would you welcome them at Weightwatchers?

If you welcome someone with anorexia at Weightwatchers they will get more ill. If they lose more weight they will die.

No one, or no way, has been able to convince genuine transsexuals with intense gender dysphoria that they are not, or should not be, the opposite sex.

There is clinical evidence that medical/ surgical transition can improve quality of life and improve outcomes for many. They can go on to function better socially, emotionally, occupationally. Have relationships etc. Ray Blanchard:

“For sustained and severe gender dysphoria, hormonal treatment and sex reassignment surgery may offer the best chance of bringing the patient peace of mind and an improved quality of life.”