In an ideal world...

[Whyistheteacold]

I'm not sure how to say this in a way that will make sense to others, so I hope what I am saying is clear! If not, please ask questions for clarification 😅 A year ago I was 100% on the TWAW side of thinking. I've followed a lot of the threads on this board and since having my own daughter, while I fully support transwomen and believe that if someone truly feels they were born in the wrong body they can and should be able to transition and have equal rights, I also understand and agree that women should be able to have their own private spaces without fear of being labeled a bigot. I feel that if someone genuinely identifies as a woman this should be allowed, but I also believe that women should be able to have a born woman examine them in a smear test for example. Largely because I care for the future safety of my daughter. And I hate that the word "woman" is slowly being cancelled in favour of offensive terms like "birthing body" or "bleeder." I hate that we are being reduced to our functions... I feel so conflicted and confused about protecting genuine transwomen, and also protecting the safety of women. So in an ideal world, how would you balance the rights of transwomen and the right to be a woman in a safe space in your opinions?

I will be honest I don't really understand the difference between self-described trans and sexed-body dysmorphia, this is something I think I need to look into.

This webinar is very timely then!
Looks great - I'm going.

Mumsnet discussion with link here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4136810-LGB-Alliance-webinar-on-Gender-Dysphoria-January-28-2021-at-7pm-GMT

First paragraph bold fail

It's an interesting question because the whole segregation of toilet and changing areas by sex in the first place relies on certain cultural assumptions - particularly that everybody is straight. We have separate sex toilets in order to preserve peoples' sense of privacy and modesty from being an object of titillation for others, on the assumption that letting biological men be present when biological women are undressing, and vice versa, is always and solely going to offend against that. But surely a gay man in a womens' changing room is going to be unaffected by women changing around him and no threat whatsoever? Whereas I was personally made to feel uncomfortable several times as a young man by predatory gay men in mens' changing rooms.

Ay my local swimming pool there is a communal changing area with cubicles that people change in, nothing marked male or female, and a couple of rooms for family use. Seems to work fine. In other situations with toilets etc, the only sensible solution to me is to have a generous amount of single cubicles/rooms that anyone can use. It's a question of allowing someone who is biologically male but trans the right not to identify as male (by not having to use the male changing rooms), but not giving them the "right" (which IMO they shouldn't have) to make women feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

Something tells me that won't satisfy the TWAW lobby though.

Oh, and the other thing I'd do in an ideal world is decide upon and thoroughly implement a single non-gender pronoun, so in the vast majority of situations where sex is not relevant, people can refer to each other without specifying it.

We have separate sex toilets in order to preserve peoples' sense of privacy and modesty from being an object of titillation for others,

The main reason for separate sex facilities is to protect women from being assaulted by men.

Secondary reasons for separate sex facilities do include to protect women from being objects of titillation for men, and also include to protect women from being subjects of men's coercion and to give us space to deal with situations that men do not experience, such as periods and pregnancy.

Notice a common theme? Women's sexuality is irrelevant in this context. Hetero women do not fear lesbians.

Ay my local swimming pool there is a communal changing area with cubicles that people change in, nothing marked male or female, and a couple of rooms for family use. Seems to work fine.

It doesn't.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total.

IIRC 97% of sexual assaults are committed by men, and oct 80% of their victims are female.

Again, notice a common theme?

Sorry to derail the thread, OP. In an ideal world women would be safe from men's violence and aggression. For that matter, so would men be safe from other men's violence and aggression,

@TyroTerf

Further to Michelle's post, I believe female people who suffer with dysphoria&dysmorphia matter too.

Speaking as one of them, I believe I should have the right to access facilities and services in a manner which does not exacerbate my complex mh issues.

The inclusion of males in stereotypical "woman" attire in female-only spaces reinforces my stupid brain's ridiculous notion that I'm not a proper woman because I can't do the girly shit - because their inclusion tells me that the important, defining feature of woman is the bit I can't do.

In an ideal world, society would not deal with the problem of male dysphoria by exporting it to females.

@TyroTerf 💐 I'm so sorry that you have to deal with those feelings and intrusive thoughts.

So from your perspective, a third neutral space would be preferred?

@EyesOpening

I visited Northampton uni before all this came on my radar (I had heard of transsexuals of course and more recently non-binary but I wasn’t aware of all what was happening) and I noticed that they had not only the men’s and ladies’ toilets but also ‘gender neutral’ ones. Looking on their website, they say: The move has been taken following consultation with the LGBTQ Society and specific members of the student population who have visited the Students’ Union. Their provision will see a space they feel comfortable in using, that does not infringe upon the comfort of any other person and should aid in reducing the stress these students have felt on a daily basis. The University has made existing single cubicle disabled toilets gender neutral, which means there will be no situation in which two people of any gender identity will be in the same room, ensuring they can feel comfortable using the space. This differs from gender-neutral toilets at some other universities in the UK, where entire bathrooms have been designated gender neutral. This is a solution proposed by the students themselves, discussed and agreed at the Union’s Student Council. www.northampton.ac.uk/news/university-introduces-gender-neutral-toilets-on-campus/ They seem to have taken everyone’s views on board and discussed it fairly

@EyesOpening while I think the idea of gender neutral toilets is a good one (and realistically the most doable) I would worry about whether using disabled toilets is the right answer. My experience at uni with a friend who was in a wheelchair was that the only disabled toilet on campus was a 20 minute journey away from the lecture halls! Although I suppose Northampton must have considered this, and I would hope have more disabled toilets.

@JellySlice don't apologise, it is all relevent. And I completely agree with you. Having separate toilets and changing rooms etc has nothing to do with sexuality. If I was in a changing room, whether or not any other women are lesbians wouldn't even cross my mind 🤔 I cannot think of a single situation where a lesbian woman has made me feel scared or uncomfortable.

However, rightly or wrongly, I don't have enough fingers to be able to count on my hands the amount of times I have been made to feel lucky that a man "only" went so far.

I am straight, but in my early 20s when I would go out drinking I would often go to a gay bar near me. You had to pay a registration fee for the year and provide your full name, address etc before you were allowed in (because they previously had issues with drunk men coming from a nearby club which closed earlier than the gay bar and harassing/initiating fights etc). I went there because it was nice to have a break from men pawing at me and getting angry if you say no thank you. There was not a single occasion that this happened with the lesbian women there. A few times a woman would start talking to me or offer me a drink, I would tell them I'm not interested /straight or whatever and that was it. We do no face the same threat from lesbian women!

Sorry, ive had a bit of a rant here 😅

[quote Toomie]I will be honest I don't really understand the difference between self-described trans and sexed-body dysmorphia, this is something I think I need to look into.

This webinar is very timely then!
Looks great - I'm going.

Mumsnet discussion with link here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4136810-LGB-Alliance-webinar-on-Gender-Dysphoria-January-28-2021-at-7pm-GMT[/quote]
Thank you for this link 😊

The trouble with mh conditions though (and with people in general) is that we're absolutely arse at figuring out what's really going on in our own heads, .... There's always a lot going on under the surface that we're not consciously aware of and certainly can't put into words. And what people think they need is so often not what they actually need.

It really is worth looking back - find transsexuals' own accounts of their experiences from previous decades, ... in an ideal world, no child would be sexually abused, no child would be bullied for failing to conform to sex stereotypes, no child would be exposed to inappropriate sexual materials, no one would use gay or girl as insults. These are all common ingredients in the emergence of sexed-body dysmorphia and sex-stereotype dysphoria.

I’ve just read and been struck by your comments from last night, TyroTerf. I think you’ve said elsewhere that you are quite young and new to all this. Apologies if I’ve remembered that wrong!

How I wish the professionals and politicians and influential commenters had a fraction of your insight.

It’s a condition that needs to be understood, treated with compassion and not collusion. But (in my view) it has been politicised by misogynists for their own purposes.

Whereas I was personally made to feel uncomfortable several times as a young man by predatory gay men in mens' changing rooms

In all my 50 years I've never been made to feel uncomfortable (in a sexual way) by a female person. Only ever by males and mostly in public places by strangers. I've been groped, grabbed, wanked at, flashed at, mostly what I would consider to be minor sexual assaults and not worth reporting (perhaps wrongly) but the one time I did report (the wanking incident) I spent half a day repeating my story over and over to various police officers and in the end nothing came of it because apparently the CCTV footage wasn't good enough quality.

I have NEVER been a victim of unwanted sexual behaviour by a female person. Only ever by male people. This is why female people need space away from males.

I agree, it’s a myth that gay men are no threat to women because of their sexuality. They are still men, physically more powerful. Your sexuality does not change your sex.

Personally, there have been quite a few times in my life when a gay man crossed a line and was physically intimidating with me or made a misogynist comment. You can enjoy dominating someone without being sexually interested.

I’d feel no less uncomfortable with a gay male stranger in an intimate space than with a straight male stranger. Gay males are not like women, I don’t understand why this homophobic myth persists.

eyes giving away disabled spaces rather than female spaces really is not an improvement. Disabled people had to fight for those spaces, and now they have just been handed over without a thought.

So from your perspective, a third neutral space would be preferred?

For me personally - no.

When I was younger the ladies' were uncomfortable at times, mainly in pubs and clubs, because they seemed full of women fixing their makeup and talking about who they want to pull, who would expect me to be able to join in these conversations because they saw me as one of them.

Giving me an alternative space would have robbed me of the opportunity to, essentially, give my head a wobble and realise they were actually being kind and friendly and the reason I felt weird was my problem in my head. It would have meant I never had those moments of eye contact and solidarity with other women who were baffled by the makeup&boys talk. In short, I would have lost the opportunity to learn through experience that the makeup&boys talk was something some women do, but plenty don't, and my womanhood is no more lessened than anyone else's by that not being my thing.

If those spaces had included males doing makeup&sex talk, and excluded females who weren't into that, and the users of that space were labelled 'women' - my sense of my own wrongness, of not being a 'real' woman - would have been exacerbated.

It doesn't help females with gender issues to reinforce the idea that the gender shit = woman. It makes it worse.

But in general terms I'm all for extra unisex spaces, because they're needed by so many different groups of people!

I think you’ve said elsewhere that you are quite young and new to all this

Is thirty five quite young?

I've been immersed in this stuff for over twenty years - I'm really not a newcomer to it!

The University has made existing single cubicle disabled toilets gender neutral, which means there will be no situation in which two people of any gender identity will be in the same room, ensuring they can feel comfortable using the space. This differs from gender-neutral toilets at some other universities in the UK, where entire bathrooms have been designated gender neutral. This is a solution proposed by the students themselves, discussed and agreed at the Union’s Student Council

Hmmm.

Single occupancy accessible toilets are generally unisex anyway, partially because it usual for there to be only one available, and partially to facilitate the needs of disabled people (for example, people whose opposite-sex spouses assist them).

So what the uni has done is change the signage on the disabled facilities they're legally obliged to provide to label them as gender-neutral, and funnelled their trans students and staff there, which displaces disabled students and staff. Did anyone do an impact assessment on what directing trans students to use the disabled facilities would have on the disabled population of the university?

Not good enough. They need to build additional single-cubicle toilets for trans students.

@TyroTerf I’m not sure how having a third space would stop women from entering women’s spaces just because they don’t wear make up?

Is thirty five quite young?

Yes it is. HTH

I've been on MN since 21, and I certainly still identify as a Quite Young Mumsnetter. I'm not prepared to give up my title until I hit 40!

I’m not sure how having a third space would stop women from entering women’s spaces just because they don’t wear make up?

It wouldn't, you're quite right. But I was replying to those hypothetical spaces being called 'gender neutral' contrasting with the female spaces being called 'women's'. That's framing 'woman' as a gender.

Third unisex spaces wouldn't prevent any female from using female facilities. But if it were a case of choosing between the gender-neutral space or the feminine space, then I would very likely have chosen the former - when what I actually needed was to learn to be comfortable in the female space.

Giving me an alternative space would have robbed me of the opportunity to, essentially, give my head a wobble and realise they were actually being kind and friendly and the reason I felt weird was my problem in my head. It would have meant I never had those moments of eye contact and solidarity with other women who were baffled by the makeup&boys talk. In short, I would have lost the opportunity to learn through experience that the makeup&boys talk was something some women do, but plenty don't, and my womanhood is no more lessened than anyone else's by that not being my thing.

This is a really interesting point, and I recognise the moments of eye contact with other women who seem baffled by all that stuff and the impact it had on me. Thanks.

giving away disabled spaces rather than female spaces really is not an improvement. Disabled people had to fight for those spaces, and now they have just been handed over without a thought.
and
it’s a myth that gay men are no threat to women because of their sexuality. ... Personally, there have been quite a few times in my life when a gay man crossed a line and was physically intimidating with me. ... I’d feel no less uncomfortable with a gay male stranger in an intimate space than with a straight male stranger.
and
In all my 50 years I've never been made to feel uncomfortable (in a sexual way) by a female person. Only ever by males and mostly in public places by strangers.

I agree with all these comments. We need to keep women-only spaces for women, and disabled spaces for people with disabilities.

“I would worry about whether using disabled toilets is the right answer. My experience at uni with a friend who was in a wheelchair was that the only disabled toilet on campus was a 20 minute journey away from the lecture halls! Although I suppose Northampton must have considered this, and I would hope have more disabled toilets”.

I didn’t actually go in the Gender Neural toilets but from the outside, (and all three provisions I saw were next to each other) I assumed the area was as big as the men’s and ladies’, there was only one door to it and I don’t think it was just one toilet. The whole campus has nearly been rebuilt so I’m assuming they put quite a few in there as opposed to converting one accessible toilet to Gender Neutral

Hi TyroTerf, I must have mixed you up with someone else. 35 is not student-age as I’d thought, though certainly young to me — oh to have 35-year-old strength and energy again!