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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What can we do?

163 replies

BrandineDelRoy · 26/01/2021 02:47

I felt empowered tonight (by some wine) to challenge what Biden's done this week. I (in the US) approached two law school friends, one former boyfriend, my best friend from high school, and my sister in law on the trans women in sport issue.

None of them seemed to know what I was talking about. And when I tried to explain it, they didn't care because TW are so few.

How can we fight this?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 28/01/2021 20:34

I face social consequences from other women, for not conforming to their conception of femininity.

I asked jj about these 'social consequences' because I don't understand what these social consequences are. I really have no concept of what people do to women who don't conform, nor how much women are expected to conform.

I feel as though I ought to understand this, but I really don't. I can believe that this happens in groups of very young people who tend to police each others' looks, but in older people? Is there really an expectation that middle aged women display and 'perform' femininity?

As Shedbuilder said: The good news is that once you get into your 50s and 60s and go a bit grey and wrinkly, you become invisible and no one feels the need to look or rate or comment any more. You can even go to a wedding in trousers and not have half the other women tut at you.

Of course, it's possible that I'm just unobservant and I've spent my whole life not noticing that some other women have been tutting at me. Or maybe I'm just very gender conforming (how is this measured)?

TyroTerf · 28/01/2021 20:47

I really have no concept of what people do to women who don't conform, nor how much women are expected to conform.

Socially? Bullying from female peers, mainly. There's the verbal and sometimes physical harassment from a variety of males, of course, but that's not limited to women who aren't meeting feminine stereotypes, it just influences the choice of insulting language somewhat.

But the main point I was making is that jj hasn't got a bloody clue what it's like to be a woman getting shit for being unable to conform to the stereotypes associated with her sex. jj has never experienced that, and never will. jj has the experience of getting shit from males for not performing masculinity. Which is not the same thing.

MichelleofzeResistance · 28/01/2021 21:30

Exactly. It does not need to be a competition. Both groups endure a lot of shit from similar root reasons.

There would be no need for this to be a conflict at all as opposed to mutually supportive in similar awareness raising and goals if female people were not being told by male people that there is no unique experience to being female, male people have exactly the same thing (and more), male people have the right to inform female people of this and overwrite anything they say about the experience of being female in order it can be male owned. Thus hand over single sex spaces and sex based rights, and female erasure.

It really does not need to be like this. This behaviour is coming from the roots of activism that talks a lot about the value of lived experience, not talking for a group you are not part of, and all the rest of it. It's so hard to understand why someone who identifies as a woman has so little interest or care in the feelings, experiences and needs of female women and insists that those females have no unique experience and must view their experiences entirely through a male born lens.

How is this justifiable? Why is there surprise and resentment that female people are not all willing to gladly embrace this?

MoleSmokes · 31/01/2021 02:00

@TyroTerf

In this forced teaming which is to seek removal of/access to female people's sex based rights, the aim is to prove that everyone in the group is the same.

I find the easiest way to illustrate this point is by setting aside the argument about the meaning of 'woman', noting that whatever this phenomenon is that the label's being used for apparently comes in male and female forms, and looking at how the two groups interact.

Male "women" get to make the rules. Male "women" get to choose. Male "women" get to dictate, and demand respect. Male "women" have the entire bloody establishment fighting their corner and championing their rights.

Female "women" get to be ignored, and threatened. Female "women" have their experiences and needs belittled and ignored. Female "women" must shut up and move over, or else.

Male "women" take precedence over female "women" every single time.

Nailed it!
RadandMad · 31/01/2021 09:27

@jj1968 Believe it or not, most 'terfs' do sympathise with what you have to deal with. And the answer is simple. You and the attack dogs spearheading the trans rights movement can just accept that trans women are not actual women, that biological women have different rights and need to you, and that the world needs to accommodate both. Stop vilifying women and accept the compromise solution of third spaces, women's right to separate spaces based on their biology (refuges, prisons, etc) and their own sports. Then we can all work together on how to accommodate trans people in their own parallel, but sometimes separate spaces and sports. Stop demanding women give you everything you want, and you'll find women like us have your back through the rest of your life.

Blakes77 · 31/01/2021 19:41

I don't know if I should weigh in, because a lot of what has been said feels a bit over my head and very academic, but...I am sure trans people get a lot of shit on the streets. It can't be easy. However, women (or more specifically GIRLS) get so much abuse on the streets too. As a very much gender conforming girl (make up, big tits, big hair) girl , going outside was running the gauntlet daily. The catcalls, the comments, the being followed-that was the tame stuff. Other stuff happened to me that wasn't so tame (understatement), and it happened because I am female, and they (men) knew I was female. So yes, basically, being female CAN be "reduced" to having a fanny, because it's the fact that everyone knows you have a fanny that makes you a target.
Later, the fact that I might get pregnant affected me when it came to job interviews, and later still the fact that I was less appealing visually affected the way I was treated at work, and treated in general by men. As a woman you go though being fresh meat, to being a nuisance, to being despised for no longer being fuckable (and I am still objectively somewhat fuckable so I don't think that one has fully kicked in yet lol)
I don't feel "de-humanised" by women saying that female biology makes me a woman. It's all the other shit that makes me de-humanised. Be trans, go to it, but don't ever say your experience make you a woman, because it doesn't and it never will.

MaudTheInvincible · 31/01/2021 20:10

@Blakes77

I don't know if I should weigh in, because a lot of what has been said feels a bit over my head and very academic, but...I am sure trans people get a lot of shit on the streets. It can't be easy. However, women (or more specifically GIRLS) get so much abuse on the streets too. As a very much gender conforming girl (make up, big tits, big hair) girl , going outside was running the gauntlet daily. The catcalls, the comments, the being followed-that was the tame stuff. Other stuff happened to me that wasn't so tame (understatement), and it happened because I am female, and they (men) knew I was female. So yes, basically, being female CAN be "reduced" to having a fanny, because it's the fact that everyone knows you have a fanny that makes you a target. Later, the fact that I might get pregnant affected me when it came to job interviews, and later still the fact that I was less appealing visually affected the way I was treated at work, and treated in general by men. As a woman you go though being fresh meat, to being a nuisance, to being despised for no longer being fuckable (and I am still objectively somewhat fuckable so I don't think that one has fully kicked in yet lol) I don't feel "de-humanised" by women saying that female biology makes me a woman. It's all the other shit that makes me de-humanised. Be trans, go to it, but don't ever say your experience make you a woman, because it doesn't and it never will.

Hear hear. I had very similar experiences to those you describe and you're absolutely right in your analysis of the reasons for it, imo.

SqueakyCarrots · 02/02/2021 17:04

Late to the party

But really wanted to address this idea that the current generations are so keen to jump for trans rights because they haven’t fought other rights wars/don’t recall a time when women faced discrimination (badly paraphrased I know).

I’ve lost any hope of eloquence before I’ve started, and I don’t really have the strength to rant at length, so I hope this isn’t lost in translation so to speak ....

I think this is a really dangerous assessment of the difference between generations and their views on this.

I grew up with ‘women’s rights’ being encoded in law. I had it deeply ingrained that we had ‘equality’. That women can do anything men can and so on. It mattered not a fuck to the reality that my girls body was used by men who felt entitled to it. It made no difference to how i was shamed for female biology. It was entirely meaningless when I knew I was at risk everywhere, because I was a girl.

It didn’t matter that I didn’t see any fights for rights in my lifetime, I never saw the results of it either. Being told we have equal rights means fuck all when the day to day reality is that we don’t, not in any real way that I could have accessed. I doubt I have a particularly unusual experience of that.

Being told you have rights when you can’t touch them is a form of mass scale gaslighting. If the reason I was being targeted and abused wasn’t because women didn’t have equal rights then why was it happening to me? It’s a kind of head fuck to be told that women have it so much better, with the legal rights protections to prove it, when your every experience in the world proves it isn’t true. I think I coped by modifying my behaviour to find ways of being safe, but I always remember feeling shocked that any woman wouldn’t need to prioritise safety in this way.

So if my every experience was that my female body was used by men and that at best other women shamed or blamed me for this, looked the other way, or actively took pleasure in it, facilitated it in my mother’s case, then hearing how much better women have it now basically silenced any hope I had of speaking up about my reality of being female. The illusion women had rights basically took my voice away, took away my language, long before this came along.

I coped by adjusting my behaviour, as a false illusion of safety I couldn’t really control. But I expect plenty nowadays would take the experience of being told women have it better these days, while living with their reality that we don’t, and see their body as wrong, identify their female biology as being the problem.

My mother used to be all publicly big on child protection. She’d actively talk about what I should do if anyone ever touched me in front of other people, she’d have me recite things like he touched my vagina in front of others to show she taught me to speak out if I ever needed to. All the while she was handing me over to whichever boyfriend was currently raping me most nights. It was this big gas lights head fuck to ensure I was as well groomed as could be.

I feel a lot like that’s how it must be for the younger few generations right now with regards to trans ideology.

Women don’t have it any better at all these days. We never have. A few laws made no fucking difference to the vast majority of us. We grow up and live with the same misogyny and male violence all other generations do. We might get mat leave or whatever, but the economy is still set up to mean it’s women who will leave work or go part time or not take the promotion after we have kids. The day in day our reality for most of us is no different than it ever has been. All the while we are told women have it better now, we have choices now, we have rights now. But our reality very often says otherwise. Being told we do when we don’t already takes our language from us- the same way my mother took it from me with her little game about how to speak up. So of course our language being further removed by trans ideology isn’t something that sets off red flags for many of us. It’s like this equality illusion (which was only ever given to silence the fight for liberation) has mass-scale pre- groomed a generation to be blind to trans ideology.

If you’re every day reality is being a girl is completely unfair, unbearable and unsafe, all the while your told women have equality and freedom and progress, then where else do you go than to identify it’s your female body that’s what’s wrong. Because how can you even access the language that might enable you to identify and speak up about living as a girl when you already know ‘equality’.

I’m tired and not up to explaining how clear this is to me, how the idea that the support for trans ideology is at all about the need to be woke and fly a flag for some fight falls so far from the truth for so many. Maybe it’s a bit part for some but imho not most by a long shot. Too many of us know that women don’t have it any better at all, without any way to identify why that is or how to speak up or how to fight it because we already have equality (except we don’t, and equality is a useless wet blanket idea that matters not at all in reality-liberation is what would have counted, that couldn’t be wiped out the way equality is now).

We’ve already grown up being gas lit to fuck about being a woman, we’ve already had our meaningful language taken before this current rewriting of words, we are already groomed ready for this predator to make us doing all the running, we are entirely blind to how coercive they are because that’s nothing new to us.

I think it’s so so so important that the support for trans ideology among younger generations isn’t misunderstood as some wide spread identity flaw due to being too far removed from suffragettes. Because I think the way bigger problem is despite everything suffragettes did, all earlier feminism did, hasn’t made real life any better for many many younger women- we’re just told it did- but we still all live as the second sex, only we’ve never had the words to say that as you did because we always had it fed to us that we got it so much better.

God that’s even less articulate than I thought I’d be..... and for the record I’m not that young, not even a millennial, not quite, but I think I still see how they fall prey to this because I had the same lived experience. And I think it needs understood how at risk of this all younger women are, because understanding that is part of addressing it I would have thought.

CharlieParley · 02/02/2021 17:25

I’m tired and not up to explaining how clear this is to me, how the idea that the support for trans ideology is at all about the need to be woke and fly a flag for some fight falls so far from the truth for so many. Maybe it’s a bit part for some but imho not most by a long shot. Too many of us know that women don’t have it any better at all, without any way to identify why that is or how to speak up or how to fight it because we already have equality (except we don’t, and equality is a useless wet blanket idea that matters not at all in reality-liberation is what would have counted, that couldn’t be wiped out the way equality is now).

Yes, this is our argument exactly - that for far too many young women and girls identifying out of womanhood seems like the perfect solution to escape all the abuse and misogyny that continues to be levelled at women in our society. That trauma is one of the main reasons why children develop gender dysphoria has been well established in decades of research. And although there is social contagion now, the same seems to be true for the post-adolescent girls and young women who make up the majority of referrals today.

God that’s even less articulate than I thought I’d be..... and for the record I’m not that young, not even a millennial, not quite, but I think I still see how they fall prey to this because I had the same lived experience. And I think it needs understood how at risk of this all younger women are, because understanding that is part of addressing it I would have thought.

Well, I don't know what your usual standard is, SqueakyCarrots but you have been very articulate. Thank you for your comment. And I'm sorry to hear about the abuse you endured and the role your mother played in it Flowers.

It seems so obvious to me why girls and women want to identify out of this, and although my trauma was different to yours, that was my reaction as a teen. Reject the whole notion of womanhood. And if we - as a society - don't address the epidemic of male violence, women and girls will continue to seek ways to escape, even if those escape routes do not lead to safety and salvation.

HPFA · 02/02/2021 17:39

@BabyBee93

Totally baffled by these responses! I think it's shocking to think womanhood is so easily threatened by transwomen. It's not "men putting their rights before women" because transwomen are...women?

Adding basic human rights to one demographic of people cannot remove the basic human rights of another? Would you argue that the BLM movement infringes on the rights of white people?

Question - for those who have sons, what would your genuine response be if they sat you down and told you that they identified as a girl?

Late to this but for me this is how it works:

1)For 99% of their lives trans people should be able to live as if they were the sex they prefer. Respecting pronouns, non-discrimination, all that should go as read.

  1. There are certain instances where the sexes have been separated and this has always been on the basis of biology. So we should look at each of those instances and say- what was the original purpose of dividing by sex here? How would replacing "sex" with "gender" affect that purpose?

The following would certainly not be agreed with by many posters here so it's just my opinion and examples:

a) I personally think that in many instances toilets could be made safe and not have to be single sex. For instance, at work where the people are known, provided the cubicles are made safe I think the chances of any woman being threatened are extremely low.

b) Prisons. Here the separation of sexes has the intent of protecting women who are exceedingly vulnerable to the greater strength of male people. Replacing "sex" with "gender" is clearly risky since gender does not in any way relate to physical strength or propensity to violence. It may be possible to judge this on an individual basis - for instance a fully transitioned TW with no history of violence or sexual offending might be considered differently from a convicted sex offender who didn't even live as a woman before prison.

c) A literary prize for "women only". Here I think you could easily replace "sex" with "gender". The purpose of such prizes is to give women's writing an extra boost but they can't be said to be necessary for women to succeed at writing, many women have won open pries and a lot of successful authors have won no prizes. So for me, personally, transwomen could be included with no detriment to women.

d) Sport. The sexes are divided here for good reason since female physiology dictates that sporting performance is different for men and women. "Sex" cannot be replaced with "gender" here since the outcomes for women would clearly be detrimental and women are entitles to fair competition just as para-athletes are. This wouldn't need to totally exclude transwomen though. In non-contact sports they might be able to compete in an "unofficial" capacity and certainly "men's" sports could be relabelled "open".

None of this will ever happen as trans rights activists insist on sex being replaced by gender completely and plenty of people on this board would regard this as a complete sell-out. So nothing will get better with this debate - we will all just carry on fighting.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 03/02/2021 09:05

Well, I don't know what your usual standard is, SqueakyCarrots but you have been very articulate.

I'd like to second that. Top post it was.

Blakes77 · 04/02/2021 18:58

If you’re every day reality is being a girl is completely unfair, unbearable and unsafe, all the while your told women have equality and freedom and progress, then where else do you go than to identify it’s your female body that’s what’s wrong. Because how can you even access the language that might enable you to identify and speak up about living as a girl when you already know ‘equality’

That is so well thought out. I have never consciously thought about this, but when you say it it makes total sense. I came early to the realisation that women and girls were still second class, but it's hard to get male or female people to see it sometimes because, especially growing up in the 90s, there are laws, there's "diversity and inclusion" and "no means no" and all that, so how do you even articulate the reality?
Thank you for that post, sad as it was, it really made me think.

CharlieParley · 04/02/2021 20:32

The reason why I disagree with your analysis here, HPFA is because you didn't follow your own method. I believe if you had, you might have come to a different conclusion on a, b and c.

on a) Single-sex facilities such as toilets do not just exist to keep women and girls safe, but also to give them privacy and dignity when they are in a state of undress. Women and girls from a number of culturally conservative backgrounds cannot use mixed-sex facilities and so would be excluded from the public sphere entirely if single-sex facilities were to be abolished.

This would apply at work, too. Even if I know everyone using the toilets, I would not use them with a male person in there. I would go elsewhere. Because I would not feel safe or comfortable.

on b) A fully-transitioned male is almost always still obviously male for most women. Traumatised women who are hypervigilant will recognise a male as male even when others don't. The vast majority of female prisoners have been victims of far worse crimes than they themselves have been sentenced for. Most have been abused by males. Repeatedly. The mere presence of a male person is retraumatising for these women.

And it isn't just appearance that matters, but behaviour, too. Male socialisation is incredibly hard to shake off and it would be an asset to a male prisoner in the female estate. Where female prisoners are allowed to mingle with male prisoners, abuse and exploitation soon follow (Denmark did this for 15 years and has now abandoned that policy again).

Few males who identify as trans pass even on first glance in real life. Fewer still pass once they interact, because for the most part male people do not behave like female people do.

Worse still is that the current policy does not acknowledge the sex of these male prisoners and penalises and/or silences female prisoners who object to the presence of male prisoners and tells them they they are wrong if they identify a male as male. Imprisoning female prisoners with male prisoners in cruel. Forced acquiescence and adherence to a quasi-religious belief you do not share are cruel.

on c) As for the prizes - you said, we need to ask: why did we set things up for women-only?

We set up literary prizes for women, because in open competition it is rare for women to win. It is already not as easy to get published (which is why Joanne Rowling published as JK Rowling).

Look at the Grammys for an example. For decades, it awarded prizes to the best male artist and the best female artist in a number of categories. So in those categories every year the same number of women and men were nominated and won.

In 2013, the male and female categories were folded into a gender-neutral one. And between 2013 and 2019, only 1 in ten nominees in those categories was female. The 40th Brit Awards did no better in their mixed-sex categories - only one of 25 nominations went to a female artist.

Women are not only underrepresented in awards nominations, but in the industry as a whole. There is no reason inherent in our sex for that - musical talent and creativity are not predominantly male traits. Women are simply signed less. And women who are signed are promoted less than men.

So literature and music prizes for women were set up to remedy sexism in these creative industries. There is no evidence that women now enjoy equality of opportunity. There is no evidence that we have overcome the sexism that leads to female musicians and writers being underrepresented, underpromoted and overlooked. Does a male who identifies as trans in his 40s really face the same barriers to entry and reward as females?

No. So if you're opening up legal set asides for female people to include some males, you are inevitably, again, disadvantaging female people.

I don't see any justification for that.

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