What can we do?

[BrandineDelRoy]

I felt empowered tonight (by some wine) to challenge what Biden's done this week. I (in the US) approached two law school friends, one former boyfriend, my best friend from high school, and my sister in law on the trans women in sport issue.

None of them seemed to know what I was talking about. And when I tried to explain it, they didn't care because TW are so few.

How can we fight this?

It isn't dehumanising to be defined by biology. Explain why it is?
You have waffled but not answered the question.
I'll give you my definition. A woman is an adult human female.

if you are genuinely intersted babybee you can find all the answers in this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

this board is not anti trans, its pro women

Does a transsexual threaten the existence of that definition and if so how? Does it make you any less of a adult human female?

Also chuckling at adding "human" in there, I'd have thought that one was obvious

I think it's easy to assume that "woman" means "vagina" but from a feminist perspective isn't that a bit reductionist and dehumanising? To think we're only defined by our genitals?

No more dehumanising or reductionist than saying humans means bipedal mammal.

Definitions are just definitions - I find it rather more insulting to suggest that women are indefinable, ineffable somethings, probably with lipstick and long hair personally.

@Kit19 thanks for the link, just flicked through and some very interesting opinions on there

Can I just add as still something I'm not sure I understand...HOW is the existence of trans women a threat to women? They're both women? What part of a transwoman makes her not a woman aside from her vagina?

@Apollo440 can you address some of my points though? I'd like some perspective

Well if it didn't say human the more mentally challenged would claim it included cats ( so why not men)

HOW is the existence of trans women a threat to women? They're both women?

Can you explain what you mean by woman?

I think it's easy to assume that "woman" means "vagina" but from a feminist perspective isn't that a bit reductionist and dehumanising? To think we're only defined by our genitals?

Yes, that would be dehumanising. But it's your side calling women "vagina-owners" or "uterus havers", not ours

"Woman" means "adult human female". "Man" means "adult human male".

We're not defining women. We're defining "women" - ie defining the word "woman". Can you see the difference?

(For "defining women" in the first phrase to even mean something you have to know what you mean by "defining" and "women"...)

Anyone saying we're "defining women" is being dishonest. You could say the same thing about any classification.

"I think it's easy to assume that "Welsh" means "from Wales", but from a Welsh perspective isn't that a bit reductionist and dehumanising? To think we're only defined by our nationality?"

"I think it's easy to assume that "blind" means "can't see", but from a disability perspective isn't that a bit reductionist and dehumanising? To think we're only defined by our lack of sight?"

"I think it's easy to assume that "vegan" means "doesn't eat animal products", but from a nutritional perspective isn't that a bit reductionist and dehumanising? To think we're only defined by our food choices?"

"I think it's easy to assume that "homosexual" means "attracted to members of the same sex", but from a relationship perspective isn't that a bit reductionist and dehumanising? To think we're only defined by our sex lives?"

etc etc

No, we're just saying words mean things. And it's useful if they continue to do so, cos it lets you talk about stuff.

Yes you have stated that some males are women but not told us how you came to this definition.

HOW is an adult male a woman, when woman means adult human female?

What makes an adult male who performs feminity the same as a woman?

*femininity

@BrandineDelRoy

I just can't believe 40 year oldish people don't get the misogyny in this.

I struggle to see the mysogyny in it, but then my head spins whenever I try and think about it deeply. I firmly do not agree that transwomen athletes should be able to compete professionally against women-by-birth, but how is it mysogynistic? (I'm 42 so bang on the age in question)

It's misogynistic because the people pushing for it are putting men and their wants before women and their needs.

Totally baffled by these responses! I think it's shocking to think womanhood is so easily threatened by transwomen. It's not "men putting their rights before women" because transwomen are...women?

Adding basic human rights to one demographic of people cannot remove the basic human rights of another? Would you argue that the BLM movement infringes on the rights of white people?

Question - for those who have sons, what would your genuine response be if they sat you down and told you that they identified as a girl?

[quote BabyBee93]@Kit19 thanks for the link, just flicked through and some very interesting opinions on there

Can I just add as still something I'm not sure I understand...HOW is the existence of trans women a threat to women? They're both women? What part of a transwoman makes her not a woman aside from her vagina?

@Apollo440 can you address some of my points though? I'd like some perspective[/quote]
We are not saying that the existence of males who identify as trans threatens women.

We are saying that the doctrine of gender ideology and its connected politics threaten women's sex-based rights.

This doctrine denies that sex exists as a material reality; it posits that there is no material difference between male humans and female humans (animals are, by and large, allowed to keep their sex under this doctrine); it denies that sex is why women and girls across the globe are disadvantaged, discriminated against and oppressed and it demands that sex is eliminated from all laws, policies and regulations worldwide.

As all laws, policies and regulations that protect and safeguard women and girls are of necessity based on our sex, this results in our existing legal rights that we rely on for protection against discrimination and oppression being undermined, superseded, sabotaged and, increasingly abolished.

Probably because they either think that 1 all trans women have male genitalia removed and or 2 trans women are women because they are women identifying as men adopting steoptypically male dress etc

Ask them if they would strip off naked room in a changing room in front of a stranger with male genitalia ( perhaps their boss in a workplace gym ...!) or if they would be happy for a teenage girl to be put in that position.

Well I'm a bit baffled at your describing yourself as 'neutral' while referring to us as 'anti trans'.

You also seem to have spent a grand total of 8 minutes on the thread that Kit took the trouble to link for you and which would answer a number of your questions. So I'm off.

@BabyBee93

Totally baffled by these responses! I think it's shocking to think womanhood is so easily threatened by transwomen. It's not "men putting their rights before women" because transwomen are...women?

Adding basic human rights to one demographic of people cannot remove the basic human rights of another? Would you argue that the BLM movement infringes on the rights of white people?

Question - for those who have sons, what would your genuine response be if they sat you down and told you that they identified as a girl?

If you explain what basic human rights you are talking about, I'll tell you how I would respond to my sons.

@BabyBee93

Totally baffled by these responses! I think it's shocking to think womanhood is so easily threatened by transwomen. It's not "men putting their rights before women" because transwomen are...women?

Adding basic human rights to one demographic of people cannot remove the basic human rights of another? Would you argue that the BLM movement infringes on the rights of white people?

Question - for those who have sons, what would your genuine response be if they sat you down and told you that they identified as a girl?

Transwomen are male adults, how are they women when woman = adult human female? What makes that group of adult males the same as adult females?

I have a teenage son and if he said he identified as a girl I would ask him why he thought that? I imagine the answer would be something along the lines of body hatred (normal in teenagers) or rejection of masculinity (fine, still male though!) or possibly a liking for things that are stereotypically associated with female children.

Thanks for all the responses. I had fallen asleep. I'll read over them this evening.

What is the difference between a man and a transwoman?

Would you argue that the BLM movement infringes on the rights of white people?

Not inherently. It would depend what the specific demands are. Name some.

Adding basic human rights to one demographic of people cannot remove the basic human rights of another? Would you argue that the BLM movement infringes on the rights of white people?

So if we give Rachel Dolezal (and anyone else who wants to) the right to declare herself black, and call any actually black people "transphobic" if they complain that their allegedly "black" organisations/campaigns are being run by white people, that doesn't infringe on their rights at all? I guess it doesn't - because trans blacks...are black.

If we let able-bodied people participate in the Paralympics, and call any disabled people who complain "transphobic", that doesn't infringe on the disabled's rights at all? Nope - trans disabled people...are disabled.

Trans people can have as many actual rights as everybody else, just as gay people got, and black people got, and women got. What they can't have (and what all the other groups didn't get) was the right to declare themselves members of a group they are not part of, thereby depriving that group of any targetted mechanisms to address group-specific needs.

Yawn. Back to the OP. I think that what 'we can do" is first the link between LBG and T needs to be severed.
There is no link between your sex/gender and who you fancy so the two groups shouldnt be merged.
Second the focus needs to be on safeguarding rather than seen as a womens rights v trans rights thing.