Decriminalisation of prostitution in Spain vs NZ

[yetmorenamechanging]

Name changed here because it might relate to a uni assignment I'm doing and don't want a trail of my posts, should someone suss me out ;)

I just discovered that prostitution was decriminalised in Spain and resulted in massive increases in prostitution. I'm using that term very specifically, because 'sex work' can be used as an umbrella term, not to be offensive.

I've seen that Bindel claims that the same happened in NZ, but there is a lot of rebuttal of that.

Spain rarely seems to be mentioned, however.

Got me thinking that could decriminalisation in NZ be different (if it is -and I'm having trouble finding peer-reviewed info on both Spain and NZ on this) than in Spain in much the same way that the impact of Corona has been different? Firstly, it's hard for most people to actually get to NZ, whereas Spain has open borders with the entire EU, plus strong links with South America. Human trafficking seems to have played a significant role in the Spanish situation. That would surely be far harder in New Zealand - you can't just drive for a day or two and end up there. Secondly, New Zealand also is sparsely populated, so the centres where prostitution would have the client-base to thrive, are far less in NZ than Spain.

These are just thoughts. I'm wondering if anybody else has more on this - maybe I've actually misunderstood it. I've found it very hard to actually find data on this, in particular peer-reviewed data. I'm, sadly, not finding that surprising either...

Do you mean Julie Bindel?

I'd be very interested in what she had to say about this (and everything else!).

Do you have a link, please?

My understanding is that prostitution is largely controlled by outlaw biker/motorcycle gangs in New Zealand - who work hard to protect a cultivated image as defenders of the public.

One tactic of recruitment into prostitution is to get girls and young women addicted to the meth they deal in........

Not an academic so can’t give you specific data etc but prostitution has always been tolerated in Spain, especially after Franco . People are scared that by condemning it , they will be seen as not liberal, aligned with the church etc. More lately with loss of income the sex work narrative is used to defend the indefensible . However there have been some successes in reducing the advertising for “personal services” in most of the mainstream press and the police do regularly raid premises and rescue trafficked women and girls. There is a big trade across the borders and I read that about a third of males use prostituted women.

So this is a link to the Guardian article I came across (while looking for more academic work).
'Prostitution is seen as a leisure activity here': tackling Spain's sex traffickers
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/may/11/prostitution-tackling-spain-sex-traffickers

And for (yes, Julie - not sure why her name needs the first name written in bold..) Bindel, the rebuttal of her work was here Decriminalisation of sex work in the post-truth era? Strategic storytelling in neo-abolitionist accounts of the New Zealand model by Lynzi (not bold) Armstrong from Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand and is a Sage article so I can't copy the text I don't think and I'm pretty sure you have to pay for access.

And thanks for the other replies. It's helpful and I'll do some more looking. Have to hand computer over to a kid again for a lesson!

I read that about a third of males use prostituted women.
Oh goodness! I was in a rush earlier and missed this last sentence. That is unbelievably shocking. I'm really hoping that the source was mistaken...

I seem to remember that at least till fairly recently, age of girl's consent was 12 in Spain. Slightly non-feminist view of females, perhaps? Certainly when last seen, the coastal areas were packed with prostitutes.

One 'matter arising', though, is that if a man pickpocket, drug dealer, or labourer arrives in a new country he is what he is, and he will be termed an illegal immigrant, punished, and (in any country except U.K.,) deported if caught. His sister, who in their home town of origin found the easiest way to get money was to work as a prostitute, is not an illegal immigrant and must be given every assistance, because she must always be assumed to be a duped and innocent victim of trafficking.

It is a compulsory convention to 'believe' that nobody, in any country, ever worked as a prostitute without guns to their heads. As far as I ever read, even if both siblings have worked as prostitutes as the easiest way to raise money in their home town of origin, and in every other place they pass through, he is an illegal immigrant, she is a victim of trafficking.

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/by-day-a-teacher-by-night-a-prostitute/PXVARWRNN4V3ZCBTT3RTUOQI6E/

One 'matter arising', though, is that if a man pickpocket, drug dealer, or labourer arrives in a new country he is what he is, and he will be termed an illegal immigrant, punished, and (in any country except U.K.,) deported if caught. His sister, who in their home town of origin found the easiest way to get money was to work as a prostitute, is not an illegal immigrant and must be given every assistance, because she must always be assumed to be a duped and innocent victim of trafficking.

I think it is an interesting and valid point, in that I'd never thought of that comparison. However, in the context of certain countries, Spain being one of them, it's interesting that these foreign prostitutes are predominantly from the same few countries, at least one of which has a known mafia. If Spain, for example, was a great place to be a prostitute, then presumably the nationalities of these women would be a little more varied.

I'm also not sure it's compulsory to think that prostitution isn't ever entered into freely. In fact, at the moment, I'd say that it's heresy to suggest that any woman selling in person sex isn't doing it willingly and even being liberated in the process. Which is quite interesting, because if it was so great, then we'd see the field saturated with the daughters of the wealthy/powerful.

[quote dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby]www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/by-day-a-teacher-by-night-a-prostitute/PXVARWRNN4V3ZCBTT3RTUOQI6E/[/quote]
I looked for updates on that case and I couldn't find any. I did find out about the 'all inclusive' though. WTF!

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-41349301

In this article, there is a summary of some new research on how the decriminalisation system is working in practice there, along with a link to the original research:

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/01/11/dame-diana-johnsons-sexual-exploitation-bill-the-debate/

Also the Nordic Model Now! webinar on 24 January has a sex trade survivor from New Zealand speaking. You can find out more about the webinar and register (it's free) here:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/prostitution-policy-the-nordic-model-or-full-decriminalization-tickets-135857604753

Purely observation, but a lot of the women I have seen soliciting in Spain (and Italy) appear to be African. They aren't always in cities either. They are sitting on picnic chairs, in laybys, in the middle of nowhere, mainly seems to be lorries that pull over for them. I don't know which, particular country or countries they are from, but not North African from appearance.

Yes, it is true people will frequently group together especially as illegal immigrants, and ply whatever trade lends itself to bringing an income. Cab driving, working the not-necessarily declared night shift in factories and workshops, car washing, prostitution, drug growing, manicures, drug dealing, massage, building labourers, chefs, and kitchen staff, pickpocketing, farm labour, begging, working as carers and as cleaners, and so on. Frequently a more experienced and efficient fellow countryman will assist in the organisation. Being organised is merely considered borderline sleaze in every occupation except prostitution, if female, in which case it is conclusive proof the worker is tricked, duped, coerced, innocent, trafficked and a victim of crime, and, in U.K., is a cast iron promise of instant shelter, money and citizenship.

If something is made legal or decriminalised, then it might appear that its popularity is rising but that may only be because people talk about it more openly. Also because if something is illegal then the people that take part will be more likely to keep it hush-hush and keep their mouth shut. Something to consider.

Also trafficking simply means forced into, it's a word often misused as it doesn't mean "travel to another country". If someone is a sex worker on their own free will and came from another country then they are not trafficked. If someone is forced into prostitution in their own town or even the house they live in then they are trafficked. I've seen plenty of tabloids claiming there is an "epidemic of trafficking" yet provides zero evidence of actual trafficking other than "there are women from other countries, that must mean they are trafficked".

Quote: and the police do regularly raid premises and rescue trafficked women and girls.

In 2009 there was the biggest ever anti-sex work-trafficking operation ever in the UK called Operation Pentameter. Law enforcement including every British police force spent 6 months having (surprise) raids on brothels, massage parlours and private residences looking for trafficked victims. Despite tabloids claiming there were thousands of trafficked victims, the findings of this 6 month-long nationwide operation didn't quite match that...

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

Quote from article: "The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media.

Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all."

Perhaps in looking why there was a massive increase in Spain some focus should be on the men who use prostitutes? Does a large seasonal tourist industry play a factor?

MargaritaPie it seems strange then how grooming gangs are still operating. What on earth do you think happens to the children as they grow into adults? Do they suddenly disappear and not be found in these raids? Police and authorities have ignored or been complicit for decades. Minimising what is actually going on is not helpful to the girls and women who continue to be abused and exploited.

Minimising what is actually going on is not helpful to the girls and women who continue to be abused and exploited.

I agree with this. No woman has sex with random men for payment if they have good self-esteem, have other options in life and aren't desperate.

Women in prostitution are being abused. They should be given help to leave and live lives that won't give them PTSD.

"No woman has sex with random men for payment if they have good self-esteem, have other options in life and aren't desperate."

How many sex workers do you know and have interviewed, just out of curiosity? Amnesty International (along with many other human rights and health orgs including the World Health Org) spent a long time interviewing prostitutes and analysing the situation from every continent and came to the conclusion to officially support complete decriminalisation.

"Women in prostitution are being abused."

There are existing laws in every British jurisdiction to cover abuse as well as other crimes including trafficking and anything involving anyone underage (including grooming). If you have evidence of anyone being abused then please pass your information onto the police.

"Do they suddenly disappear and not be found in these raids?"

As per my above link on Operation Pentameter, every police force (and other agencies) spent 6 months having surprise raids on homes and establishments all over Britain (biggest ever British anti-trafficking operation) to look for the alleged thousands of trafficking victims the tabloids and some politicians speak of. If finding thousands of victims was its aim then it was a complete failure to say the least.

Should we have an even bigger anti-trafficking operation? Or could the tabloids like the Daily Record be exaggerating perhaps? As I mentioned I have seen plenty of tabloid articles talk about "trafficking" when it has no evidence for this other than "there are sex workers who are from another country, so they must be trafficked."

nordicmodelnow.org

I can't understand the desire to defend the sale and rent of women because it's somehow "just a job."

Really? I've never heard of anyone, including prostitutes, who sees it as the best alternative for her daughters (or sons).

There's a quite surprising lack of rich women doing it, if it's just a well-paying job.

There's a complete dearth of men doing it for female customers. Admittedly, men have plenty of job options. But if it's "just a job," why is that?

The "job" has the highest on-the-job fatality rate of any. Mortality in a Long-term Open Cohort of Prostitute Women. It has as high, in some studies higher, incidence of PTSD among survivors than combat. Serving up burgers is just a job. It does not have striking PTSD incidence among survivors.

And then the research on punters which time and again shows that what they're paying for is domination. (If all they really needed was sexual release, there are easier and cheaper methods. They have hands.) The most other jobs require is politeness in the face of rudeness. None of them, except prostitution, require body slavery.

I'm all for people having control over what they do with their own bodies. If a woman (or a man) actually really freely wants to make money selling her body, the easiest way to keep the seller in control is using the nordic model. When the punter can get in trouble with the law, he's likelier not to annoy the prostitute into calling it. So why all the objections to the nordic model?

@Weedsnseeds1

Purely observation, but a lot of the women I have seen soliciting in Spain (and Italy) appear to be African. They aren't always in cities either. They are sitting on picnic chairs, in laybys, in the middle of nowhere, mainly seems to be lorries that pull over for them. I don't know which, particular country or countries they are from, but not North African from appearance.

I have seen the same in the south of France. You see them being driven to the locations too. Or arriving in taxis. It's just awful. Then you see the cars stopping - it's literally on small roads connecting villages, not roads with lorries. Horrific.

[quote annadjinn]In this article, there is a summary of some new research on how the decriminalisation system is working in practice there, along with a link to the original research:

nordicmodelnow.org/2021/01/11/dame-diana-johnsons-sexual-exploitation-bill-the-debate/

Also the Nordic Model Now! webinar on 24 January has a sex trade survivor from New Zealand speaking. You can find out more about the webinar and register (it's free) here:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/prostitution-policy-the-nordic-model-or-full-decriminalization-tickets-135857604753[/quote]
I like your username @annadjinn, although I suspect you are not ;)

Thanks for both of those links, very useful.

@newyearnewname123

Minimising what is actually going on is not helpful to the girls and women who continue to be abused and exploited.

I agree with this. No woman has sex with random men for payment if they have good self-esteem, have other options in life and aren't desperate.

Women in prostitution are being abused. They should be given help to leave and live lives that won't give them PTSD.

According to my uni course, prositution is liberating. This is exemplified by - I am horrifically not joking - Indian women who live and work as prostitutes in an area of town (ghetto?) for prostitutes. The fact that their children are stigmatised and their futures are severely impeded is glossed over. What is made clear, by the focus on one woman in particular, is that working as a prostitute provides financial independence. This is a brilliant thing that she'd never have if she was married. In fact, being married is seen as the absolute worst sort of life. So, she's a free woman thanks to her choice to work as a prostitute. Yay!

What is also glided over is the mention that she started this career when she was 12. No mention at all of how that came about. Obviously, I'm imagining she woke up one morning with an entrepreneurial spirit and went ahead and made her dreams come true...

This is also a course where one of the faculty actually snorted at the idea that women might want single sex toilets: they are being unfair to trans women. Oh yes, and Mermaids is hailed as a great organisation too.

Had been really looking forward to this course but honestly can't wait to see the back of it. It just feels like dangerous propaganda. This is a course for people who presumably want to help others one day too - we're not studying astrophysics.

The world has gone crazy.