Decriminalisation of prostitution in Spain vs NZ

[yetmorenamechanging]

Name changed here because it might relate to a uni assignment I'm doing and don't want a trail of my posts, should someone suss me out ;)

I just discovered that prostitution was decriminalised in Spain and resulted in massive increases in prostitution. I'm using that term very specifically, because 'sex work' can be used as an umbrella term, not to be offensive.

I've seen that Bindel claims that the same happened in NZ, but there is a lot of rebuttal of that.

Spain rarely seems to be mentioned, however.

Got me thinking that could decriminalisation in NZ be different (if it is -and I'm having trouble finding peer-reviewed info on both Spain and NZ on this) than in Spain in much the same way that the impact of Corona has been different? Firstly, it's hard for most people to actually get to NZ, whereas Spain has open borders with the entire EU, plus strong links with South America. Human trafficking seems to have played a significant role in the Spanish situation. That would surely be far harder in New Zealand - you can't just drive for a day or two and end up there. Secondly, New Zealand also is sparsely populated, so the centres where prostitution would have the client-base to thrive, are far less in NZ than Spain.

These are just thoughts. I'm wondering if anybody else has more on this - maybe I've actually misunderstood it. I've found it very hard to actually find data on this, in particular peer-reviewed data. I'm, sadly, not finding that surprising either...

yetmorenamechanging

That is terrible. Could you send us more details at [email protected].

We need to start seriously campaigning around what is happening in universities and colleges and this is really important information. Thank you.

"There's a complete dearth of men doing it for female customers."

What are you basing this statement on? Because the tabloids generally only acknowledge female sex workers and pretend there aren't any men selling sex?

I just went to an online escort directory to try something. I searched for all women escorts in the UK that have been online in the past 2 weeks (ie "active") and there were 13,702. I did the same for men escorts and there were 4,115.

That means out of a sample of 17,817 active escorts (a decent sample), 30% are male. I checked a few random profiles of male escorts and while it depends man to man, a lot do specify they will only see female clients, or M+F couples together. It is clear from this there are a number of male sex workers who do have female clients.

IMO what the media tells us about sex work isn't always how things are in reality. The Daily Mail or the Daily Record or the Daily whatever isn't really IMO a good source for pretty much anything.

Also you may be interested to know Edinburgh University Student's Association passed a motion to support sex workers and to support complete decriminalisation. When considering the motion they consulted students of theirs who sell sexual services, and acknowledged the "Nordic Model" would be harmful and not in their best interest.

www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/eusapolicy/liberation/sex_workers/

NZ's legal prostitution just means prepubescent girls working Hunter's Corner etc with zero police intervention.

It should have been decriminalised for the prostitutes only - and much more heavily criminalised for Johns and pimps. I'm Kiwi, and it disgusts me how little care there is for those women and those little girls.

Underage sex (money exchanged or not) is still illegal of course in NZ. Also NZ has decriminalised sex work (which is different from legalisation).

Not long ago a NZ sex worker won a large payout in a sexual harassment court case, which shows sex workers are being taken seriously in such cases.

news.abs-cbn.com/overseas/12/15/20/new-zealand-sex-worker-wins-major-payout-in-sexual-harassment-case

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/14/new-zealand-sex-worker-wins-six-figure-sexual-harassment-payout

Underage sex (money exchanged or not) is still illegal of course in NZ.

But nothing is done. It all just slips under the radar now. Little girls out on the street, nothing is done.

Why the fuck are students at a top university selling sex services?

The university should be finding out why this is happening and why these women are putting themselves at risk? Not enabling it. Ffs.

@Notts2021

Why the fuck are students at a top university selling sex services?

The university should be finding out why this is happening and why these women are putting themselves at risk? Not enabling it. Ffs.

This x 100%. Normalising girls/boys earning money by selling their bodies for sex work is plainly wrong. It is the latest 'woke' thing I gather: University of Brighton www.independent.co.uk/voices/student-sex-workers-brighton-university-tuition-fees-feminism-a8563336.html

University of Leicester: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9042973/University-Leicester-launches-student-sex-worker-toolkit.html

I've also seen articles before about a 'sugar daddy' thing re University fees/expenses as well...a milder sort of 'escort work' I suppose.

There are apparently methods of selling sex without selling sex, e.g. sending out used underwear or displaying feet on live camera earns money apparently, as does (according to a documentary) snarling at men who plead to be allowed to hand over their earnings at the doorstep, then crawl away on hands and knees after being granted the favour of a hard kick between their legs. The woman remarked she has several like that, some who enjoy simply being sworn at on the doorstep, or who pay to be derided by phone.

It has always been the case that some men enjoy being whipped, but I actually found myself in an ordinary b.and b. where the man running the place for the owner was delighted to work in return for derision and being made to sleep with the dogs.

Slowly, I'm beginning to see that many apparently straightforward couples are thinly disguised voluntary slave and mistress relationships.

When you think of it yourself, don't you think that although statistics tell us women do the lion's share in most average relationships, there's another type of couples where the man seems not only, unusually, to do far more than a fair share of work, but seems positively to accept and relish the lifestyle of being docile and obedient, willing, dominated, even publicly despised or derided by his wife ?

"Little girls out on the street, nothing is done."

What is your source/evidence for this? If you are aware of underage girls on the street then please make a police report.

"Why the fuck are students at a top university selling sex services?"

Do they need to explain themselves?

@MargaritaPie

"Little girls out on the street, nothing is done."

What is your source/evidence for this? If you are aware of underage girls on the street then please make a police report.

"Why the fuck are students at a top university selling sex services?"

Do they need to explain themselves?

It's been reported and documentaried for YEARS. Everyone knows, it's common knowledge in NZ. Why don't I ring up the police and tell them crimes are being organised down the well known and left alone gang HOs in Mt Eden too?

Everyone knows.

Whatever.

I have listened to Megan Murphy podcast with a survivor of NZ sex work here podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/feminist-current/id603245791?i=1000471406821

I hadn't realised there'd been more posts here. Interesting reads - and listens. Thanks.

Knowing the makeup of Edinburgh students, I'm BETTING the ones who are selling sex are not the ones living in large New Town flats. We know what Edinburgh uni is like given how Magdalen Berns was treated there.

Generally it seems that the there has been a wholesale move away from the idea that society should protect its weakest and that nobody deserves harm, to "Oh well, people are going to sell sex anyway and men are always going to buy it, so let's just run with that."

I read recently about the level of traumatic head injuries women in prostitution are subjected too. It's higher than Iraqi war veterans' levels. It's similar to the level that professional American footballers get. The women have long lasting impact from them, because unlike American footballers, they don't get immediate medical help and certainly aren't able to rest up at all afterwards. Their heads are usually slammed against walls or sinks - ie the punter brings no weapon other than his physical strength. So the idea that 'it's a job like any other' is patently untrue on so many different levels and yet we're still supposed to believe that insane proposition that it's a 'job like any other'. How little are women's lives valued that this level of violence can be so minimised?!

Don't worry, it's rhetorical!

Here's the traumatic head injury research in case anybody wants to read/asks for it:
digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1104&=&context=dignity&=&sei-redir=1&referer=https%253A%252F%252Fscholar.google.com%252Fscholar%253Fhl%253Den%2526as_sdt%253D0%25252C5%2526q%253Dfarley%252Btraumatic%252Bbrain%252Binjury%2526btnG%253D#search=%22farley%20traumatic%20brain%20injury%22

April 2018
Screening for Traumatic Brain Injury in Prostituted Women in Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence, volume 3, issue 2. Written by Farley, Banks, Ackerman and Golding.

Do you think in Britain, a typical meeting between a client and sexworker involves the client "slamming her head against the wall and sink"? And do you think the sexworker would not report this? Or do you think the police would not take her report seriously?

One of the sources for that article btw is Melissa Farley.

www.parliament.scot/CrossPartyGroups/Human%20Trafficking/Minutes_20140604.pdf

Quote from above link:
"Dr Melissa Farley – Canadian courts have found Dr Farley to be a less than reliable witness, finding her evidence “to be problematic (Justice Susan Himel)
o Melissa Farley is facing a complaint relating to her membership of the
APA on the grounds her 2008 critique of the New Zealand model of
4 decriminalisation breached ethic guidelines (she did not seek ethical
approval for her research – and several other alleged breaches of the code of ethics)
o Farley’s research in Scotland (Challenging Men’s Demand) which Rhoda referenced several times in her consultation document has been
challenged many times - seventeen academics and activists signed a
criticism of this research."

That study was done in Canada. I'm guessing Canadian johns are different than British ones. ;) And no, I don't think it's necessarily a typical meeting, but yet, I do think that physical violence occurs..because I know for a fact it does. Met someone just today, in fact, who was describing horrific violence that occurred to someone she knows intimately who worked in prostitution.

But what's your actual point here? That oriface rental is a 'job like any other'? That you did it and liberated yourself by doing it, therefore it's great? That you support men renting women's bodies for their own pleasure? That prostitution is actually safe? That the real danger for women who are working in body sales is that social stigma from people like me causes PTSD, not the fact that they need to dissociate in order to do the job (btw, I neither respect nor disrespect someone renting their body out, I do believe if they'd had other options, they'd not be doing it, because women who do have other real options, usually choose them and I agree social stigma isn't beneficial).

So, what was it then, that point of yours? Are you saying that punters arrive, have tea and chat with the woman, check that she's not trafficked, check that she knows she can remove her consent at any point, check that she's actually truly wanting to be there to offer her orifaces and wouldn't rather he just leave the money and fuck off out of there, then make sure she's feeling ok, make sure she's enjoying herself and there's an actual connection between them, don't ever continue if they think there's not and in no way think that they've paid for her so they own her for that time? Really?

I live in the real world mate and maybe there are some men who are so discerning in their treatment of women they've bought, but the fact that men are renting humans indicates enough to know without any peer review that they are not the sort of people who care about women.

By the way, some academics may not have liked that research, but it was peer-reviewed, same as theirs presumably is too. While PR isn't flawless, it's hardly like some random PhD uploaded online either.