School referring to all pupils as 'they'

[newlife79]

Was just looking at my child's school Twitter feed and noticed that they are referring to all pupils as 'they' rather than he/she. For example, "Katie from Year 7 did well in a Drama competition, they said they really enjoyed taking part".

Is this a new thing? I suppose the person who runs the Twitter feed doesn't want to misgender the child. It seems a bit extreme.

Dido It's a bit tortuous, but I think the point is valid. I'm not denying that French has il and elle to specify he and she; I just wanted to make the point that the ways languages express gender/sex can differ - there isn't one fixed right way.

In English, we are used to both possessive and subject pronouns specifying the sex of the subject; but in French only the subject pronoun has this quality.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

It's the same old message isn't it?

Gender neutral pronouns are good. Women who say no must be reinforcing the patriarchy. No mention of what happens when it becomes important to know what sex a person is to prevent all sorts of perfidious things happening.

Like... knowing which sex requires more time and support in education for specific learning; knowing why same sex blood transfusions can be vital; why statistics are kept in all sorts of sex based differences in so very many areas of government.

No... let's just throw all that away and become They... regardless of the real costs, many already visible if you choose to look..

Oh, and I am a woman, she, her. More often me, myself and I. I see no reason to bastardise that in any way just to pretend that real things don't have to be real at all!

er, strawman much? What I said was -

Surely if you want to reduce society's tendency to load specious gender expectation onto people based on their sex, the logical way to do it is only to mention their sex when it's relevant?

I've never seen anyone suggest making gender neutral pronouns the ONLY ones available, as you seem to suggest. In cases like you describe, of course there is perfectly good reason for specifying someone's gender. The point is simply that we shouldn't HAVE to do it in ALL situations even when gender is irrelevant, simply because of an irrational gap in the language that doesn't allow us not to.

That's the way it is with other qualifying characteristics. For example, we don't generally specify people's race when speaking or writing about them. We do it when it's relevant. In fact doing it when it's not relevant often comes across as racist.

Having said that, I don't like "they" just because it sounds clunky, as it already has a different (plural) meaning

For different reasons the English language (mostly) lost its singular second-person pronouns a long time ago (thee/thou) and we manage fine with the plural "you". I'm pretty sure we'd adapt fine to moving away from singular third-person pronouns towards the plural.

They sounds a bit clunky, but its probably the best fit.

In the context of a socitey that is in the process of trying to erase biological sex to the detrement of women, choosing now to introduce gender neutral pronouns, though technically a good idea, is problamatic.

If you are British you know Kate is female . I work a lot internationally and often people don't know my sex until we meet as they don't see babe as female , really helps , although the facial expressions can be farcical

I would prefer more sex neutral name choices too

I am not saying abandon sex as a key indicator, I am just saying it isn't needed all the time. Use it where appropriate.

I can see why the person tweeting would do that if they don't know the student

But then you have to ask, did Katie really enjoy the drama competition?

I don't think that the way to erase sex discrimination is to get rid of sexed pronouns. How about working towards to actually instilling equal perception and equal treatment of sexes?

In the other example of inborn differences, discrimination by race, black people are celebrated as they are (and they should be) not blended in in the "white mass" so that nobody would notice them.

Women should feel proud to be called a woman, not a ridiculous they.

I don't see the need to use a gender neutral pronoun. Human beings are not of neutral sex. Calling them 'he' and 'she' does not mean we have to continue with outdated, gendered stereotyping.

Surely if you want to reduce society's tendency to load specious gender expectation onto people based on their sex, the logical way to do it is only to mention their sex when it's relevant.

I don't think that follows. Firstly, I don't see why we should be trying to conceal someone's sex as though it's something shameful. Secondly, in most scenarios the person's name, physical appearance (or other things about the context) would make it clear what sex they were.

As for the point that it's hypocritical for GC people to prefer to have the correct pronoun used for them. No, it isn't. It's perfectly reasonable to expect to be referred to by the biologically and factually accurate terminology which is and always has been used to refer to people of your sex, and not to have it changed without your consent.

I can see why the person tweeting would do that if they don't know the student

I can't. Do you know a lot of boys called Katie?

It's not about not being a woman

You don't always refer to a woman as a black woman unless the skin colour is in some way relevant and in fact calling out someone's skin colour every time you mentioned them would be racist

I’d also be very happy with gender neutral pronouns as standard. I really don’t see a feminist argument against it.

I think some TRAs would probably not really be happy with it because it removes a way for them to insist on everybody else validating their gender identity.

@richardthethird1485

"Katie from Year 7 did well in a Drama competition, they said they really enjoyed taking part" could be replaced by:

"Katie from Year 7 did well in a Drama competition, and spoke of really enjoying taking part".

No chance of misgendering or being woke then.

An elegant and sensible way of dealing with it. Thank you Richard.

...(But then how would the writer of such a sentence signal his or her excruciating wokeness.)

@Kendodd

Oh, and loads of evidence that if you do know what sex the person you're dealing with, even by email, women get worst treatment.

Yes. This is a real problem.

You don't always refer to a woman as a black woman unless the skin colour is in some way relevant and in fact calling out someone's skin colour every time you mentioned them would be racist

Well yes, because adding adjectives about people's appearance is optional, and only done when you wish to refer to those aspects. Whereas the English language (like many, but not all languages) requires a pronoun before the verb. The pronouns used for referring to individuals are 'he' and 'she'. Language changes of course, but fortunately rarely by directive.

Language changes of course, but fortunately rarely by directive.

Thank fuck.

Yy to this I don't see why we should be trying to conceal someone's sex as though it's something shameful

I also think, given the 'default male' assumption as described by Caroline Criado Perez and others, it's important to chalkenge that and assert that we're talking about a woman, especially for STEM references but in all areas of life.

Thank fuck.

Well quite. Trying to force changes in language based on your current ideology is the behaviour of the oppressor, not the oppressed.

I have seen first hand the benefit of not having my sex known

I can see that having sex based pronouns does not get over the problem of invisible women or there would not be a problem given how much emphasis is placed on sex

That emphasis is in all the wrong places and for all the wrong reasons

The only english teacher i know well would be sobbing in a corner over this 😀

If a gender neutral pronoun is used for everything won’t it hide both the positive and negative parts of being male or female especially in schools

More and more names are becoming sex neutral and people tend to put their own spin on sex stereotypes

So sam won the 200 mtr race, may be assumed to be male cos boys are sporty

George got an 9 in their childcare gcse, may be assumed to be female

@Alltheprettyseahorses

Yy to this I don't see why we should be trying to conceal someone's sex as though it's something shameful

I also think, given the 'default male' assumption as described by Caroline Criado Perez and others, it's important to chalkenge that and assert that we're talking about a woman, especially for STEM references but in all areas of life.

Oh allthepretty said exactly what i wanted to

Do you know...in real life i come straight to the point, stick a keyboard in front of me and a load of blather comes out

I recently received a praise letter from my new year 7 daughter and never once did the mention her or she. It was her name and they the whole way through. I was a but surprised at this and it didn't read well as every other word was her name.

Less of a pain for them to just do this for everyone rather than every individual kids preference

Does this bullshit happen with fee-paying schools?

(I'd imagine not.)

In cases like you describe, of course there is perfectly good reason for specifying someone's gender. The point is simply that we shouldn't HAVE to do it in ALL situations even when gender is irrelevant, simply because of an irrational gap in the language that doesn't allow us not to.

Sex... specifying someone's sex.

ANd I haven't said anything about making anyone announce their pronouns, quite the opposite.

What I did say was that when sex is replaced by gender and preferred pronouns are by some people then things like crimes are reported incorrectly... hapens every week, a man says he's a woman and his crimes are reported as female crimes. Because someone decided that prerred rponouns trump biological sex - to be kind

There is no irrational gap in the language It and They and a person's name are perfectly adequate. It is the enforcement of preferred pronouns, making it a crime to 'misgender' (and yes, that does come under the new hate crime laws) see tales from New York etc.

You accuse me of straw manning.. yet you obfuscate mightily!

Slightly on a tangent but I saw on Twitter the other, someone talking about their child who had declared themselves non-binary and this person kept referring to them as “the Kiddo“ so I guess the parent isn’t allowed to refer to them as son or daughter and it led me to thinking about what a child would have to call their non-binary parent “Parent, what’s for dinner?”. I have to say that it saddened me.