Disentangling maleness versus masculinity for a heterosexual woman

[oggbogg]

Hi all, I hope you don't mind me asking something. I love this board on Mumsnet. I have learnt so much reading it but am typically a lurker rather than a poster. Anyway, I have been thinking about something, not especially important or intellectual, but interesting to me. I will try to explain it as clearly I can and I sincerely hope that it is not offensive to anybody or too stupid.

So, I believe in binary sex (M/F) but that gender is socially constructed. However, as a heterosexual woman I also think that I am attracted to men because of their masculinity (I guess, gender) rather than necessarily or only maleness (sex). It's not that I expect men to conform to gender stereotypes or much at all (or that I do for that matter) but I am aware or at least I think that there is something about men's 'difference' that I find attractive, which starts from the physical but goes beyond that.

So actually ... maybe I do expect men to conform with male stereotypes more than I like to admit!? I have a suspicion that this is probably to do with my own social conditioning. But it also feels like a contradiction in terms, to find (some, clearly not all!) men attractive in part for their 'difference,' while also feeling that those differences don't really exist.

This is a real ramble but can anyone help me to unravel this? Again, I hope it doesn't sound insensitive or offensive.

What are the differences you find attractive, are they really unique to men?

And yes, social conditioning makes it hard to untangle yourself !

I know that the word masculine seems to be associated with gender (and thus stereotypes) by many.

I must admit I simply regard masculine as anything associated with a male. Masculine and maleness are one and the same in my mind. Same as I associate floral with flowers.

Don't know if you got this right... Gender is a social construct and at times a stupid one. Examples:

• a chef, a nurse or a dancer have what is seen as traditionally female jobs. Are they not attractive to you?

• a man with long hair or maybe eyeliner is not attractive to you?

• a man dressed in arab style with a "dress" (not a dress, but you know what I mean) is not attractive to you?

Of course they are! they are male and thus potentially attractive to an heterosexual woman

It's interesting isn't it because a lot of "masculinity" I think is only possible because of their male sex, I'm thinking, being stronger so they're able to to "carry you over the threshold", being tall and handsome, not many women go for shorties.
Having facial hair, that's masculine to me!
A certain muscly toned look...

Or are you saying you're interested in blokes who play the alpha male, talk loudly, do macho things like drive too fast but can fix the car, supports football, does DIY in the house, drinks pints, that sort of thing? Those sorts of things are stereotypically masculine but of course women can also do them so it's nowt to do with being male.

I don't think there's anything surprising about this. If you are attracted to men, you are likely to be attracted by attributes associated with maleness. Some of those things are intrinsic (male physical characteristics). Some of them will be cultural. If you'd been brought up in a society where, for example, wearing jewellery or doing flower-arranging were considered very manly, you'd probably find them attractive.

You can believe that gender is socially constructed while still acknowledging observable differences in behaviour, personality or just some indefinable "quality" between men and women. That's because gender is not simply the observation of those differences; it's a whole bunch of pseudo-scientific and pseudo-philosophical stuff that gets claimed on the basis of such observation. Such as normative claims that men and women should behave a particular way because that's the innately "right" thing for their gender. Or psychological claims that we all have a gender identity that is either male or female, that for most people corresponds with the sex but for some is the opposite.

You need to remember that most statements about the general qualities of groups are about overlapping distributions, not binary distinctions (biological sex being an obvious exception). So the observation that men are more likely than women to be fascinated by science and technology and want to go into STEM careers means just that: more men than women do. This only becomes a gender issue once you start attaching preconceptions and expectations to it: thinking there's something wrong with a man who doesn't want to get a "manly" job or a woman who doesn't prioritise raising a family over being a scientist.

Are these differences innate or conditioned? I don't know, I don't think we'll ever fully answer that question because it's not possible to raise people without some form of conditioning. I'm not sure it matter though. I raise my son and my daughter equally to embrace the full range of their talents and interests and feel pride and value in whatever they do. I don't impose gender stereotypes on people and I challenge attempts to do so when I see them.

Hmm, so I don't think I care as much as I think and I am almost certainly talking rubbish, because personally I couldn't care less if a man liked wearing jewellery or doing flower-arranging, and would think they were a dick if they drove too fast or whatever else is apparently macho. I suppose what I am asking fundamentally is something really basic and possibly a bit embarrassingly ignorant which is whether sexuality is solely about which bodies we are attracted to since gender is pretty much irrelevant. I guess by asking the question I have the answer and again I am so sorry if this is completely obvious and/or offensive!

We are a sexually dimorphic species, so its not surprising that heterosexuals are sexually attracted to the physical differences. Men and women are not physically identical but with different genitals. Men are physically masculine, and women are physically feminine. Our proportions and muscle tone tend to appear different, even among athletes. And we dont usually have a hard time telling the sex of another adult.

Thats before we get to social conditioning about appropriate gender roles and behaviours.

Sexuality by definition is about someone's sex preferences and sexuality does seem to be innate, as levels of homosexuality are constant across all cultures

I'm straight, but I'm not attracted to most men, so neither male sex nor gender is sufficient. I'm not sure what the small proportion of sexy men have that the others don't! It seems random. Maybe pheromones. Or something about the interaction.

Magdalen is very helpful here in her videos when she discusses the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference.

Here you go. Never a bad thing to watch Magdalen again.

I don’t know if this is relevant but I have realised I am definitely heterosexual since becoming more aware of this topic. When I’ve met or watched transmen on YouTube I’ve noticed I just don’t look at them the same way as I do men (that sounds both shallow and pervy but I mean it as just the way you register someone rather than checking them out!) - even if they are hyper masculine with beards and muscles etc so it’s definitely the male sex I am attracted to, in whatever format they are - long hair, makeup or traditionally masculine.

There's a reason sexuality has been classified based on the sex of the people you tend to be attracted to. For almost everyone, 'homosexual', 'heterosexual' or 'bisexual' makes sense. Wouldn't worry about it.

The lovely thing is you are free to be attracted to whoever and whatever you like and to expect not to have other people police you for it because you're not fitting neatly into their personal labelled boxes.

Are you exclusively (not a dirty word, it's your body) attracted to masculine people regardless of their biological sex?

Are you exclusively attracted to biologically male people showing masculinity in the way you like?

Are you exclusively attracted to female people showing masculinity in the way you like?

Help yourself think it through by removing the word 'masculinity' entirely and substituting it with more specific words that carry more meaning.

For example:
I am attracted to confidence in men
I like assertiveness in a partner
I enjoy bravery in a man

And when you've worked out that what you're actually attracted to are merely universal human personality traits (either innate or conditioned) which you admire in combination with men, and others admire in women, you'll see that the issue is coding such traits that both sexes possess as belonging to masculinity/femininity.

To be honest, everything becomes much clearer when people stop mentally colouring personality traits as pink or blue.

I am physically attracted to big rugby playing types. Tall and broad shouldered - I'm fairly tall myself. My DH looked a lot like Tommy Cooper. The men of my youth had long hair and some wore eyeliner. I still find long haired men attractive.

However I am not attracted to macho types. Quite the opposite. My DH was a gentle soul and in our life together he was responsible for those little feminine touches that make a house a home. He was better at all domestic tasks apart from cooking.

One gender stereotype I do like is men who are gentlemen. I've tried to analyse what I mean by this and it boils down to knowing their strength is at my disposal should I need it.

I'm not drawn to bossy or dominant men and I've no time for men who talk football, boxing or cars.

Sexually DH was a bit of a powerhouse. He always put my pleasure first and, while never rough, gave me the "damn good seeing to" I so much enjoyed. Hope that's not TMI.

@oggbogg

Hmm, so I don't think I care as much as I think and I am almost certainly talking rubbish, because personally I couldn't care less if a man liked wearing jewellery or doing flower-arranging, and would think they were a dick if they drove too fast or whatever else is apparently macho. I suppose what I am asking fundamentally is something really basic and possibly a bit embarrassingly ignorant which is whether sexuality is solely about which bodies we are attracted to since gender is pretty much irrelevant. I guess by asking the question I have the answer and again I am so sorry if this is completely obvious and/or offensive!

I'm a completely straight man - never had any inkling at all of attraction towards men. Your OP did make me think about whether that's just about bodies or whether there's some other sexual "essence" or something involved. So I asked myself whether, if one of my closest male friends, someone I knew I liked and was compatible with in most ways, were exactly the same person with the same personality but had a woman's body, whether I could imagine having an intimate relationship with them.

The answer was yes. ie, for me, the difference is purely physical, not behavioural.

Re-reading my post i feel a bit embarrassed. Too personal and TMI. Sorry about that. It was a thread about more abstract ideas of masculinity and I lowered the tone.

I found it very interesting trying to unpick stereotypes from sex. I've done it a thousand times with female versus femininity but never with the other sex. My previous focus has been toxic masculinity - why are men so much more violent than us, for instance. But in my everyday life the men around me aren't like that. So I've been thinking furiously.

My current conclusion is that I'm attracted to maleness rather than masculinity, and to sexual confidence.

I shall go on pondering.

Don't feel embarrassed Prawn your comment really made me smile and think. I especially loved "One gender stereotype I do like is men who are gentlemen. I've tried to analyse what I mean by this and it boils down to knowing their strength is at my disposal should I need it."
Where I work the men would be classed in modern parlance as "Old Fashioned" open doors, carry heavy things etc. I had to get used to that as I can do those things myself! Then there was a flasher in the area and they would walk us to the station and make sure we were all safe. I will be thankful for them being gentlemen!

Definitely don't feel embarrassed Prawn, FWIW I liked your post and I am also really grateful that people engaged with my OP as I wasn't sure whether it was a bit weird. Fifteentoes I asked myself a similar question but in a slightly different way, thinking about whether if my husband remained exactly himself but was in a female body whether I would find him sexually attractive. And my answer was no. Part of my interest in this is though also in relation to the Trans debate I guess too. In that if my husband came out as a Transwoman (I must say, this is unlikely!) and chose to present as female without physically transitioning how would I feel? Because presumably if this is about sex rather than gender and he remained respectful and kind, it shouldn't matter. And I'm still not sure how I feel about that. In raising this question, I have all respect for Trans widows many of whom I am aware have had a terrible time in such circumstances.

So you are heterosexual (a woman who is attracted to members of the male sex), and you have a preference for masculine men, rather than feminine men?

I think the first thing is your sexuality, the other is just a preference. Like long hair or short hair.

because personally I couldn't care less if a man liked wearing jewellery or doing flower-arranging,

But if the jewellery was a set of lady pearls and he wore the flowers in his hair or a floral dress? I suppose there is a point that behaviour can go past that it then becomes a turn-off.

I have given this some thought and this is what I have come up with. Sexual attraction is possibly a combination of innate inherited characteristics "chosen" by evolution and DNA, and social conditioning. What very few if any people ever do is try to disentangle the innate from the conditioned characteristics. I am a straight male and when I was in my teens at times I would express an attraction to women with big breasts (not disrespectfully and only in conversation with other guys my age.) Looking back I did this through a desire to fit in, and because it was considered normal to be this way, and I wanted to be normal. Years later I have learned that this is simply social conditioning and does not reflect who I am. What might be interesting is to do what I have been trying to do mentally and think about challenging the socially conditioned aspects of attraction. What you might find is that what has happened is that they have displaced your actual true (but socially different from normal) attractions. For example when I realised the age breast thing was not actually me, I realised how important articulateness and unapologetic intelligence was to me as a prerequisite to finding someone attractive. Might be worth giving it a go.

My ideal is a man in a well cut suit, double cuff shirts with cuff links and a tie. Stylish, tailored masculine dressing is extremely attractive. It makes already handsome men like Tom Hiddlestone, George Clooney, Douglas Murray, John Hamm or Robert Palmer more attractive and even makes men like say Charlie Watts, George Osborne or Jordan Peterson look good. John Gordon- Levitt's fabulous tailoring was the only thing worth watching in that dreadful Elliot Page film whose title I can't be bothered Googling.

I think men in dresses look ridiculous. I don't like jewellery or make-up on men. Although having said overly masculine over-muscled rugby player types are deeply unattractive too.

I was reading a thread about what straight women find attractive in men and it was often the sleeves rolled up, arm behind the seat to reverse ‘manly’ stuff as well as the biological stuff like stubbly chins.
Clearly, a lot of what we call femininity is actually affected behaviour, not standard in females across cultures, so I like to hear men discussing how much of masculinity is equally affected for the opposite sex and cultural expectation. I feel like talking about this and dismantling the illusion is important if we want to avoid ‘othering’ the opposite sex.
There is a reticence though. So many men don’t want to realise that women are sweaty, hairy animals the same as them. So many women don’t want a man who will cry, who can’t always be strong. There’s disgust on each side. It’s not healthy for anyone.

Going completely off track, so back to the OP, I’m a bisexual woman, but don’t find stereotypically feminine presentation or manner attractive in either sex.
I wouldn’t be attracted a to feminine male (trans woman), or feminine female, only to masculinity in both males and females.