What can we women do to be more inclusive of trans men?

[FanEffinTastic]

Apologies if this has been discussed extensively in threads I've not encountered. I just read an article on Penis News (yes, I know...). It mentioned being more inclusive of trans people (primarily males in single sex spaces, I assume). But it did make me think... how can we be better at including trans people of the sex which matches our single sex spaces (trans men and no binary females)? I know this is tricky, because we need to be able to question masculine-seeming people when necessary, and many trans men "pass" very well (far more frequently, in my experience, than trans women). But should female spaces be labelled explicitly ("women and trans men"?)? Are there any trans men on here who could advise on steps we could take? It seems important, if only to clearly show the ludicrousness of the T* term...

To clarify the T * * * term

I'm not sure it is up to women to be 'more inclusive' of trans men, so much as trans men needing to recognise their affinity with women, surely? Not rejecting it.

By protecting their sex based rights, which they might someday find they'll need should they end up in prison, hospital or sports.
As pointed out above, we're already doing that. I suspect we don't get the support from transmen not because they don't agree (I'm sure it's a mix) but going against the misogynistic trans agenda is hard enough socially and politically, imagine if you're on team trans.
They're probably even more scared than us of rape threats and cock sucking suggestions.

Or we could just parrot transmen are men. That's the easy (useless) option.

The only trans-man I know well enough to have any idea of their feelings on the matter (a colleague) doesn't want to be more included by women.

Isn’t the point that women who wish to be men don’t want to be included by other women. They are trying to leave womanhood.

The difficulty is transmen are rejecting womanhood. They don’t want to be included under the umbrella woman.

(Obviously except when they have babies like a certain TM because I assume they still went to ante natal services instead of rocking up at mens health clinics & needed ppl in obs & gyn & midwives who know how biology works to ensure their child was cared for & delivered safely)

Given that "many trans men "pass" very well", how would you propose ensuring that no-one enters a female space with bad intentions and lies, saying they're a trans man, to try and retain that access?

I've never spoken with a GC woman on here who is not wholly inclusive of TM when they talk about standing up for the rights and specific sex based needs of female people. TM understandably often prefer not to be included with women, however many quietly use female spaces as safer, and are necessarily part of the female prison estate as sex based needs aren't escapable.

Its a rather different situation. Female people don't have any threats to sex based rights being brought to them by TM, there are few if any barriers for TM accessing female spaces and support if they wish to. I'm not sure there's a problem to be solved.

I do think the most important thing from my pov is to continue to stand up for the right to be a female homosexual, that lesbians are females who are fully entitled to same sex attraction without harassment, that females are entitled to choose a sexuality that excludes all male born people from their body and dating pool without exception regardless of how male people may feel about that, and to ensure that there are older lesbian role models available to girls to know that gay and transition don't have to be the same thing. And to always be there for people like Keira Bell, in whatever way they need. In the future, I can see there's going to be a lot of female people with significant medical issues, gynecological issues, grief over loss of fertility, to go through court redress if needed, and they will need a lot of practical support. I don't see male people or the activist community are likely to help provide this. Although it would be lovely to be wrong.

@snekkes

Given that "many trans men "pass" very well", how would you propose ensuring that no-one enters a female space with bad intentions and lies, saying they're a trans man, to try and retain that access?

Eh? Nobody here minds sharing a space with a transman, as I understand it. I find the one transman I know very easy to be around, and although they passed on first meeting, I picked up something slightly 'off-key' about them, realising at last that they were female. Despite a masculinised appearance, I still noted the absence of being slightly subconsciously 'on guard' that I usually have with males whom I don't know.

I would have absolutely no problem sharing any form of facility with a transman.

There's a bit of a rub isn't there, because in being inclusive of trans men, who don't wish to be referred to as women, or even "female" even though only females can actually be transmen, we are often force into reducing ourselves to biological functions in order to be more inclusive.

Basically, by default, all feminism is inclusive of transmen because it centres females, whether it's female health, fairness, representation, safety, all of these things automatically include transmen because they benefit directly from any gains feminism makes for female people.

Whenever we are expected to make extra efforts to specifically be more inclusive of trans men, we are expected to go through huge linguistical obfuscations to avoid using the word "woman" or "female" and end up having to call ourselves "menstruators" or "people with a cervix" or "pregnant people".
So while it's important to recognize that a small minority of female people are trans, I also feel it's a bit much to expect the rest of the female population to stop using the word "woman" to refer to ourselves.

OP before we start rushing around trying to solve the problem you posit, could you please convince us there is a problem? In what way are we not inclusive?

For example, my DDs all girl school continues to educate pupils who decide to transition to become trans boys/men. I am GC, but one of my best friends at uni is a transman and I always respect their pronouns. So what’s the problem you are trying to solve?

I would have absolutely no problem sharing any form of facility with a transman.

Neither would I, but as PP pointed out, a man, any old man could say "I'm a trans man" to gain access. It's the same as any old man sticking a wig on and saying "I'm a trans woman" to gain access.

That being said, I'd still rather women's spaces were open to trans men rather than trans women for obvious reasons.

By protecting their sex based rights, which they might someday find they'll need should they end up in prison, hospital or sports.

Yes this. Preventing them from burning legal bridges for everyone, and ultimately themselves.

while it's important to recognize that a small minority of female people are trans, I also feel it's a bit much to expect the rest of the female population to stop using the word "woman" to refer to ourselves

I don't think that expectation or pressure on organisations and product manufacturers is coming from TM. Female people just don't have this kind of power.

Neither would I, but as PP pointed out, a man, any old man could say "I'm a trans man" to gain access. It's the same as any old man sticking a wig on and saying "I'm a trans woman" to gain access.

I don't think so. For example, I know two transmen, both of whom are a good bit shorter than me. I am 5'7". They might be, ooh, 5'4" max. Tiny hands, boyish faces despite the beards, butch lesbian vibes.

I do not think any old man would pass as a transman. Think of the men you know. How many could pass as transmen?

People in toilets and other single sex shared spaces have had no problems distinguishing between the sexes in the past. Sometimes butch women gets a second glance but that's about it. I don't believe that human ability has changed.

It hasn't suddenly become genuinely impossible to tell who is a man and who is a woman. Some women having flat chests, bum fluff chins and check shirts won't make it impossible to tell when Barry is pretending to be a Brenda on testosterone.

Feminism is about campaigning for women's and girls' rights. That has two aspects: the first is biology-related, e.g. abortion rights, maternity rights etc. Feminists would support transmen here. The second aspect is related to the social role of women, e.g. pay discrimination, sexual harassment etc. Then the question is, are transmen still subject to that kind of discrimination even though they identify as men? And if they are, should feminists get involved? Side-point: are transwomen subject to the same kinds of social discrimination as women, and if they are, is it a concern for feminists or TRAs?

Being a trans man is the extreme manifestation of the complete rejection of womanhood. I don't see why trans men would desire any further association alongside women.

As said above by other posters, it's important that women's sex based rights are protected and strengthened. Trans men cannot escape biology and may find themselves needing access to single-sex services like reproductive healthcare and so on.

I don't see what else we should be doing other than leaving the door open so to speak. There might be growing numbers of detransitioned women in future that will feel like reconnecting with womanhood and women's rights.

There's a severe lack of good role models for lesbians, and girls and young women who do not conform to stereotypes. I feel it's more important to focus on positive role models for such women and provide them with the support and community they need to feel confident in being themselves without resorting to life altering 'fixes'.

By unapologetically protecting the words and language that we use to describe ourselves and experiences, and standing up to bullying and misogynistic tactics to erase and redefine womanhood, we collectively demonstrate our self-respect and determination to not be doormats to male desires and fetishes. This is a good example for future generations of women to see.

The confusion would be mind boggling. If you ask the general public what a transman is, you'll invariably get the reply that they are men who are transitioning. We haven't solved our issues yet, why would we divert our strength to add to confusion

The assumption here is that everyone in society is up to scratch with the whole debate and knows the clear distinctions. 'fraid not. Until real clarity is established and the trans debate is taken on by men as their problem then I would be tempted to take the, understanding, non-discriminatory route and acknowledge the need for equality whilst maintaining my right to campaign against the treatment of women by TRA.

Lovely though it is, there are major problems. Many transmen are antagonistic and adopting stereotypes that are certainly worrying for me.

There’s a whole tranche of young ‘born as women presenting as non binary’ who attend the women’s centre where I work. We welcome them with open arms.

@TheBuffster

By protecting their sex based rights, which they might someday find they'll need should they end up in prison, hospital or sports. As pointed out above, we're already doing that. I suspect we don't get the support from transmen not because they don't agree (I'm sure it's a mix) but going against the misogynistic trans agenda is hard enough socially and politically, imagine if you're on team trans. They're probably even more scared than us of rape threats and cock sucking suggestions.

Or we could just parrot transmen are men. That's the easy (useless) option.

I agree with this, though with Gncq 's caveat, that:

while it's important to recognize that a small minority of female people are trans, I also feel it's a bit much to expect the rest of the female population to stop using the word "woman" to refer to ourselves.

@Etinox

There’s a whole tranche of young ‘born as women presenting as non binary’ who attend the women’s centre where I work. We welcome them with open arms.

That’s interesting Etinox. Why do you think they come to the women’s centre if they are NB?

I’m still not sure what “presenting as NB” means. From what I’ve seen on social media it seems to be rejecting stereotypically female clothing & presentation but I could easily be wrong

Also another thought if they are NB do they also go to spaces for men?

Also another thought if they are NB do they also go to spaces for men?

I have never seen this happen.

"Men" refers to evil cis, white, heterosexual, patriarchal etc etc... Ewwww... A.k.a. The scapegoat that is responsible for everything wrong in the world.
"Women" on the other hand is a catch all term that includes everyone and their pet wombat if they 'identify' as anything other than 'man'.... Including males. 🙃

There's a severe lack of good role models for lesbians, and girls and young women who do not conform to stereotypes. I feel it's more important to focus on positive role models for such women and provide them with the support and community they need to feel confident in being themselves without resorting to life altering 'fixes'.

Yes this. I was very disappointed with the artist formerly known as Ellen Page. In a lesbian relationship, dresses in jeans and ts and somehow thinks that he needs to identify as a man. To me it smacks of wanting to escape homophobia and he knows that trans is virtually untouchable due to aggressive tea lobby.
Of course there's a small nasty party of me that thinks Hollywood narcicism, but I try not to have thoughts that others' motives could be less than honourable.
I found that one pretty galling as in one stroke he'd killed a lesbian role model and refused to allow others to talk at the wake. Let alone he's most well known for a definite woman role. Saying a man played a pregnant teen makes me grind my teeth.
But the most annoying part by far was having to go back just now and correct my pronouns. My post now predictably sounds like nonsense.

Has this ever been an issue until it got labelled? I remember throughout my life many “butch” women (particularly as I’ve been involved in Rugby, riding and farming), that you glance at and think “are they a woman or a man”. Then you crack on with being nice and doing whatever you were doing.

I would expect if I saw one of these “butch” women in the loo or the female hospital ward that they were in fact women and felt completely uncaring and safe with that fact.

It’s only now all of a sudden they are “men” and feminine men are “women” that the issue has actually occurred right?

So my suggestion for inclusion is to back out of all this labelling bullshit and return to normality!!

I also resent that the way you dress has been captured by the movement. I dress like Elliot Page most days, but because I am seriously depressed. It annoys me that people might assume I just have issues with my gender. Not that I dress like that to show I'm depressed mind, it's more a symptom. I just can't stand the thought of people going 'wokester' in their heads.