What can we women do to be more inclusive of trans men?

[FanEffinTastic]

Apologies if this has been discussed extensively in threads I've not encountered. I just read an article on Penis News (yes, I know...). It mentioned being more inclusive of trans people (primarily males in single sex spaces, I assume). But it did make me think... how can we be better at including trans people of the sex which matches our single sex spaces (trans men and no binary females)? I know this is tricky, because we need to be able to question masculine-seeming people when necessary, and many trans men "pass" very well (far more frequently, in my experience, than trans women). But should female spaces be labelled explicitly ("women and trans men"?)? Are there any trans men on here who could advise on steps we could take? It seems important, if only to clearly show the ludicrousness of the T* term...

"So my suggestion for inclusion is to back out of all this labelling bullshit and return to normality!"
Which is the obvious solution, but doesn't solve the need some people have to live a lie.
What amazes me is they know that we know they're not really what they say they are. But everyone needs to keep up the pretence because it's nice to spare feelings.
I mean, I'd like to identify as a Victoria Secret model and have people ignore the evidence of their eyes and treat me as such. Landing modelling jobs meant for seriously beautiful women probably would help my ego, but I don't see people clamouring to align themselves with my fantasy version of myself.
I fail to see how this is any difference, for example of giving Labour's Women's Officer roles to non women. It's pandering that ultimately takes the role away from someone the role was created for. If my couch potato ass took a role from Kate Moss no-one would be screaming PLAIN women are SUPERMODELS# no debate.

I've mentioned this before on FWR, but last year (when moving around the country was something we could do) I went to meet an unknown colleague at a new site, and was met by a smart, small man with a beard and moustache. As soon as they smiled and said good morning I knew they were a TM, I felt the whole body relaxation of knowing I was alone in a strange place with a female and not a male. Its instinctive, we're animals ffs and we pick up on the clues very fast. If I hadn't noticed at that point I would have done as soon as I saw them from behind, as the body shape and proportions weren't male.

The colleague was a lovely person, I can't imagine their being sufficiently insensitive to others to cause anyone fear or concern, or not knowing how to pick up on it and help if their appearance did initially cause concern. It's one of the reasons women prize female only spaces; if I was having a miscarriage in a public loo (and this has happened) I'd feel able to ask another woman, even as a total stranger, for help and know this was safe to do and would be understood. Because women get this stuff. It's sex based stuff. How that woman appears or chooses to name themselves isn't really relevant to having that trust in them as another female.

@Biscuitsanddoombar, “ That’s interesting Etinox. Why do you think they come to the women’s centre if they are NB?”
We run DV courses and it’s a free & safe space. My armchair observation is that presenting as non binary is often a reaction to growing up and living in a hypersexualised environment. Co-Ed inner city schools, rap culture, Instagram et al

You're all talking so much sense - thank you.

I asked this, as I know we say frequently (and rightly, IMHO) that it's up to men to expand the bandwidth of being male, so that trans women who remain anatomically male don't feel threatened in spaces designed for men/people who are anatomically male. And then I thought about whether we, as females, need to pay more attention to not making other females who don't conform to stereotypes of womanhood feel that they have to/want to opt out of the conceptual space (as well as physical spaces) of womanhood. I know this is probably the wrong board for the question in some ways, as I'm guessing that many (most?) of us don't conform well to traditional female stereotypes, and would be very keen to make sure that all females feel included and welcome, irrespective of their role in the world/appearance. But I can't help thinking that maybe there's more we could be doing(?)

Included/welcome I'm beginning to find those words very annoying. I am a malevolent old sod who wouldn't include or welcome anyone, unless I woke up in a good mood. The world is not made up of welcoming and inclusive people, it is made up of human beings.

I am however, completely pro equality but it had better not come at the expense of women

Here, here. I reserve the right to be a grumpy old bag lol!

This thread comes across as desperate to be liked.

Trans men are rejecting womenhood. I doubt they want to be included by gender critical feminists. There are far less of them in the public domain; of the ones who are you gender critical feminists will get very short shrift from the likes of Freddy McConnell and Elliot Page. Buck Angel would probably be more gracious in declining but he has been quite clear female spaces aren't for him.

I don't know what you mean by conforming to female stereotypes. Appearance wise I am very gender conforming and very happy to be so. I don't agree with much of what is said on here about how awful it is to be a woman and that women are perpetually oppressed for example the moaning about "wife- work" coupled with doing little to change it.

Has a trans man ever posted on here? I don't recall ever seeing posts. I doubt they would find it particularly helpful as the prevailing narrative is trans women are really just confused lesbians- so actually denying their existence.

The only trans person I know in real life is ftm, transitioned in his late 20s after a whole lifetime of wearing boys/ men's clothes/short hair. They were and still are attracted to men. I can't think he would find anything helpful from the prevailing mindset on here.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘inclusive’. Do you mean ‘how do we include them in our spaces’? Or do you mean ‘ how do we campaign for their rights’?
If it’s the latter, by campaigning for women’s sex based rights and ridiculing sexist stereotypes which restrict the freedom of individuals to flourish however they want.
If the former - trans men are entitled to use women’s spaces. I think the issue is perhaps that they don’t want to!
If it’s about ‘expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be female’, I don’t think anyone here would in a million years suggest to be female you need to look ‘feminine’. This pressure comes from society more widely, in particular the media & pornographers. The only way to overcome it is to argue vigorously against the sexual stereotypes perpetuated by society, including by the transgender movement. Every time we point out that a male in a dress & nail varnish hasn’t made himself into a woman, because femininity has nothing to do with being female, we’re allowing more space and ‘bandwidth’ for gender non conforming women.

Has a trans man ever posted on here?
You get the occasional AMA by a TM I think?

I do also remember a long time ago Jack Munroe going "he/him" and they posted here then.

I think it's more likely that transmen aren't on Mumsnet because it's aimed at mums.
If you're going to reject womanhood giving birth has got to be number one.
As previously stated, whether they reject GC or not by fighting for sex based rights we are protecting them by extension. They may reject womanhood on a personal level but provision needs to be there for transwomen to access it when needed.
Personally I'm quite happy for medical literature to say women and transmen for example so they feel included. I'm not happy for the word women to vanish in the name of inclusion.

I'm guessing that many (most?) of us don't conform well to traditional female stereotypes, and would be very keen to make sure that all females feel included and welcome, irrespective of their role in the world/appearance. But I can't help thinking that maybe there's more we could be doing(?)

That's your female socialisation speaking. It is my responsbility to make everything perfect for everyone even if they don't want it.

Until recently British society was really very accommodating of gender non-conformity in both men and women. It was kind of our thing.

FGS, generations of children lapped up Enid Blyton's George character with not a second thought, it was normal to us. Foppish boys, goths, glam rock and New Romantics were all the rage. Bowie and Elton John were mainstream: rugby players and girl guides all sang along. We had a female prime minister in 1979 FFS who didn't simper around talking about let's be lovely to everyone.

The problem isn't that we've stopped being kind or stopped being inclusive. I am not quite sure what the hell has happened recently but it definitely isn't British people starting to accept to non-conformity, quite the opposite. It's like we have decided to import someone else's conformity.

There are TM MNetters, even Whittle has honoured us on occasion. Not to mention, as no one is compelled here to start every post with their bio and identity (and why everyone rolls their eyes at the "I'm a man and..." posts) no one has a clue which posters are gay, straight, male, female, trans, black, disabled etc etc etc unless they choose to disclose it in a post.

And no, the 'prevailing narrative' is nothing of the sort, you're conflating a number of perfectly valid concerns in a dismissive and dishonest way to spin your chosen views there.

@StrippedFridge very true. On a side note I was always a bit miffed at Blyton that Anne had to be such a wet blanket. She always wanted to do the washing up whilst George got to go off for adventures. Why couldn't Anne like dresses and adventures?

Then again, probably too much to expect from a 1950s fictional character.

@MichelleofzeResistance

There are TM MNetters, even Whittle has honoured us on occasion. Not to mention, as no one is compelled here to start every post with their bio and identity (and why everyone rolls their eyes at the "I'm a man and..." posts) no one has a clue which posters are gay, straight, male, female, trans, black, disabled etc etc etc unless they choose to disclose it in a post.

And no, the 'prevailing narrative' is nothing of the sort, you're conflating a number of perfectly valid concerns in a dismissive and dishonest way to spin your chosen views there.

Well we will have to disagree on that. As someone who is far less invested than most of you on the "gender- critical" narrative I can assure you that the notion of "if only trans men would just accept they are lesbians" comes across very clearly on here.

That's your female socialisation speaking. It is my responsbility to make everything perfect for everyone even if they don't want it

I agree- trans men are free to row their own boat. It's up to them. It's not my concern.

Think you're misreading people's disappointment at losing lesbian role models with GC narrative. I.e someone like Elliot Page would've been so important a role model when she came out as gay. Imagine how affirming that would've been for young lesbians. For people who don't consider being a lesbian wrong declaring you're now straight seems a bit of a backstep. Personally, as I don't buy gender stereotypes I fail to see how you'd need to reject sex unless you bought into stereotypes. But obviously looking at it through a GC lens. But pushing a small human out your vagina tends to reaffirm your belief in sex a bit.
Of course, you're the only person on here without an agenda so we must now down to your superior thinking.

As someone who is far less invested than most of you on the "gender- critical" narrative I can assure you that the notion of "if only trans men would just accept they are lesbians" comes across very clearly on here.

Perhaps invest and read in a little more detail then? Since I could assure you that you're misinterpreting and thereby implying that women here are 'overinvested' and fussing about something they shouldn't really bother about.

There's that misquote of Kiplings, isn't there - 'If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs.... then you probably haven' fully understood the situation'.

If it were up to me they would at the very least never be put in prisons with men, but that makes me a bigot. They've made their beds, they can lie in them.

[quote TheBuffster]@StrippedFridge very true. On a side note I was always a bit miffed at Blyton that Anne had to be such a wet blanket. She always wanted to do the washing up whilst George got to go off for adventures. Why couldn't Anne like dresses and adventures?

Then again, probably too much to expect from a 1950s fictional character.[/quote]
I recall a section where Anne was praised for being a good little girly by Julian I think after she laid on a good spread for lunch on an island trip or something like that and Blyton described Anne as being miffed thinking about how she did not want to marry until far in the future because she dreaded that life of housewife drudge and much preferred her current adventures. I cannot remember which book. I don't think I noticed it as a child. Only when reading it aloud to my children which must have been getting on for ten years ago. Anne wasn't as wet as she seemed. She didn't stay home colouring. She like adventures and fancy table decorations. Me too.

@StrippedFridge I'm enjoying the new adult famous five. Five on Brexit island is a hoot.

@MichelleofzeResistance

As someone who is far less invested than most of you on the "gender- critical" narrative I can assure you that the notion of "if only trans men would just accept they are lesbians" comes across very clearly on here.

Perhaps invest and read in a little more detail then? Since I could assure you that you're misinterpreting and thereby implying that women here are 'overinvested' and fussing about something they shouldn't really bother about.

There's that misquote of Kiplings, isn't there - 'If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs.... then you probably haven' fully understood the situation'.

Does any consideration of what you (general you) sound like to anyone who doesn't toe the "gender critical" line ever enter your (general your) heads.

Clearly not.

As someone who is far less invested than most of you on the "gender- critical" narrative I can assure you that the notion of "if only trans men would just accept they are lesbians" comes across very clearly on here.

Most people on the planet have a clear understanding of man and woman. It is believers in gender identity that are creating a narrative to support redefining man and woman. There isn't a gender critical narrative really is there? GC is just people going Nah, that's bollocks when someone tells them about the new definitions.

It seems important, if only to clearly show the ludicrousness of the T term...*

But the term has always been ludicrous and hateful. The point has been made over and over again that it's not 'trans-exclusionary' because it includes 'trans men' - i.e. it is sex-based feminism rather than about gender identities - and it doesn't matter. You can be as inclusive, careful and sensitive as you like - but anything other than 'trans women are women' will get you labelled and denounced.

As someone who is far less invested than most of you on the "gender- critical" narrative I can assure you that the notion of "if only trans men would just accept they are lesbians" comes across very clearly on here.

Noting that this is a pattern - that gender-non-conforming girls often grow up to be lesbians, as happened up until the last decade - does not mean it applies to everyone. But it is a pattern.

Until recently British society was really very accommodating of gender non-conformity in both men and women. It was kind of our thing. .... The problem isn't that we've stopped being kind or stopped being inclusive. I am not quite sure what the hell has happened recently but it definitely isn't British people starting to accept non-conformity, quite the opposite. It's like we have decided to import someone else's conformity.

That’s true, StrippedFridge. Really weird. Suddenly gender stereotypes are more restrictive, and socially enforced, than 50 years ago. I’m glad I grew up back then.